Leaving The Gay Lifestyle
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Questions
I am merely raising some questions here because I am curious and want to open certain aspects of this topic up for discussion. I am not doubting that every fiber of a homosexual person may ever feel otherwise. I am not stating there is a right or wrong.
One of my goals with presenting this topic is based on why it should matter whether or not gay is biological or environmental? Science is hot on this conundrum though. If it is biological does that mean it will finally be vindicated and gays will find everlasting peace? I ask questions, not because I am politically incorrect and wish to offend, but because this is a sensitive topic worth discussing. Let's begin to answer some things and be open to this topic like anything else we would discuss...
Most of us are who we are down to our core and we get pretty disturbed when people try to change us in any way. Take for instance my extremely pissed off mother who mad rushed her way into my 3rd grade teacher's classroom after she heard my teacher was trying to change me from left to right handed. Many of us have habits and traits that have stuck with us since before we had memory of how they got stuck on us. But we've got groups of people who really want the answers on the origin of sexual preference.
In the news
The following story got to me, and many other people. It's what I'd like to discuss most importantly.
Lesley Pilkington, a counselor in Britain, will appear before a professional conduct panel and may lose her accreditation with the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy. All because she agreed to help Patrick Strudwick, a homosexual man, become heterosexual without realizing he was an undercover journalist and gay rights activist.
Patrick came to her office seeking counsel and claimed he wanted to leave the gay lifestyle. During their session, he had a tape recorder strapped to his stomach and secretly recorded his conversation with Lesley. Mrs Pilkington, stated she ‘understands the issues’ and has treated ten patients in the past using the controversial Sexual Orientation Change Efforts Program. She also told Patrick she would help him change his lifestyle.
Patrick Strudwick, who runs a campaign group to stop "conversion therapy", said: ‘Every major mental health organization in Britain and America is opposed to attempts to change someone’s sexuality... because there is good evidence not only that it doesn't work but that it is harmful.'
There are however, counselors who believe all men are born heterosexual but that some choose a homosexual lifestyle which can then be changed through counseling. Lesley went on to state: "We say everybody is heterosexual but some people have a homosexual problem. Nobody is born gay. It is environmental; it is in the upbringing.”
There are unfortunate, and probably unintentional, issues with this story- Political, religious, ethical and social. First, the counselor is a Christian, and that sparks fire from opposing sides, especially among the gay community. Even those who are not gay may sympathize with their lifestyle and choices being regarded as "unacceptable" according to the Christian religion and Bible.
One understandable issue here for the homosexual community is when Lesley, the counselor, states homosexuality as a "problem". She definitely could have chosen better words. With that said, there are counselors who specialize in assisting transsexuals- someone who wants to change their entire sex, so why wouldn't a counselor be able to assist with someone who wants to change their sexual orientation? It's similar to telling people who would like to change their sex, 'you were born a man so you can't become a woman'. The gay community is stating, 'People are born gay so they can't ever be straight'. It's not fair in either scenario to take that choice away. It gives power to the biology versus environment argument which is only futile for all those depending on a definitive answer from science to solve the issue that doesn't even need to be an issue.
Answers
It is widely believed that people and society will become more accepting of homosexuality if they are convinced it is inborn/biological. The fact that science is still studying this in depth leads me to believe people are unconvinced of the current findings and may always be or the science hasn't caught up with the theories and questions yet. What concerns me is the continuing of these studies only suggests there is an alleged right or wrong.
Here's my science and opinion: Observational science and my logic, is what we'll call it. Science is truly flawed in so many ways. I witnessed this when I assisted with research in the field of psychology at my college. I wish it wasn't flawed so that we'd have more neat and tidy answers, because that's what I am comfortable with.
If science were to prove homosexuality is not biological or genetic, there is no doubt people would still be convinced otherwise. Science in any area of study is almost never proven, except for the law of gravity- you can bet your lightweight butt gravity exists and is proven. The only way science is proven is if the theory/results can't be disproved. That won't happen in the area of homosexuality.
I still have a question of logic backed by my psychology background. How is it one can be so sure homosexuality is biological when no one can remember back to the day they were born and especially before? Most of who we are is developed and consistent with what we learn in the first six years of life. At least three of those years are beyond anyone's memory.No memory for at least half of your most formidable years is significant enough to not be overlooked. How does anyone know they were always gay. Since it is a sexual preference, sexual feelings don't arise until later in a child's life, past the formidable years.
Many things in nature occur because of predisposition, something in the DNA, biology, but something (or several factors) in the environment triggers it to come to fruition. Concerning our physical health and bodies, it is known 50% is biology and 50% is environment. I wish the 50/50 answer was good enough for all of us.
A good example of 50/50 is a young male child with feminine qualities. What in the brain or biology determines whether they think they must simply be gay or must want to actually be a woman (transsexual). The answer...Environment! Environment is how the parents react to a sensitive young male child, how open and creative their environment is to allow them to be a well adjusted sensitive heterosexual man. Some grow up to think I must want to be a woman...because of input from society, from their upbringing, and some of the sensitive grow up believing they are attracted to other men because of the same environmental reasons. Two male children with female tendencies or qualities will receive different feedback associating them with these other choices.
And you ask, 'Why dont we just let them be'? Yes, why don't we. Why don't we as parents, educators, friends, say it's OK to be a sensitive man. It's OK to be a masculine woman. You don't have to be one or the other- you can be happy embracing all your qualities.
Leaving
Stories of people leaving the gay lifestyle all report one thing- it was a lifestyle, a choice. They do remember some trauma in their early lives that made them "flip the switch" and become homosexual. My cousin, for instance, is gay. She claims since having her heart broken one too many times by men, she is now happier with a woman. She remarks it was a choice and has been happy with her partner for over ten years.
Those that maintain homosexuality is biological and believe it is not a choice or environmentally driven, may possibly not recall an event(s) much too early in childhood that influenced them. If we don't remember does that mean it doesn't exist? Those that are most likely to leave the gay lifestyle or believe it is simply a choice, do remember early events that may have been an influence.
The counselor, Lesley, who is under scrutiny for her practice, believes getting to know God and Jesus is a helpful part of the process she practices. Interestingly enough, many homosexuals who have left the gay lifestyle reported leaving on their own, but turning to the Bible and God for assistance. While I don't think Lesley is completely out of turn on her practice, I also don't know why it is such an issue if someone wants help and that sort of help is sought. To suggest people would not leave the gay lifestyle because it is biological and inborn isn't consistent with the facts that some people do in fact leave and the biology argument will never be proven.
A counselor not helping someone with something completely ethical- she's not assisting with a murder- is like a pet store owner turning away someone who wants to buy a cat because the person has always been a "dog person". People change their minds, people are always changing. This is life.
Suggested Reading
- My Father, The Transsexual
My parents were married 18 years. Several of those years my mom was a diehard housewife to the core, even when it meant accepting my father's crossdressing. I was young enough to think it was just a game when my dad played dress-up... - Dude Looks Like A Lady; Feminine Trends On Men
I've lived through enough fashion trends to be OK with men wearing make-up, such as popular rock band, KISS or more recently Adam Lambert. I'm even physically turned on by the way thick black eyeliner...
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enjoyed the read... intimacy is a strange and wonderful thing... to feel comfortable within ones on skin is a task for some and for others it's like falling off a log... if it is a task, one begins to look for comfort... immediately circumstance changes just by changing ones circumstance, a whole new set of emotions and visions appear instantly... so the creative mind either starts to embrace or dispose any knew thoughts... to late for the brain has recorded the thought and it is forever filed in there somewhere... and because it's always filed as a question, the brain will look for the answer... it's why Paul said in the Christian bible... all things are permissible for me... but all things are not profitable... I once asked a friend... was that to weird in my presentation, she had known me for a long time... her answer was... you wanted it to be right... and you are more comfortable with it being that way right.... she was right, part of my own belief about myself was I needed to feel special and if I was weird was I not special... it's in the brain and I love that we all have a different one...
A great hub with much food for thought.
Thanks for sharing and take care.
Eiddwen.
Great subject and information. As is your intent, you certainly are raising questions that make your reader think allowing for much discussion and debate. My experience with people that are homosexual ALWAYS comes back to the fact that it is inborn/biological. These people feel that if they had a choice, they would choose a heterosexual lifestyle which is easier and much more accepted. They don't feel they have a choice.
Fascinating hub..one that I will bookmark so I can reread it. I remember reading about a study that claimed that Gay men's brains were different than straight men. I do not remember the details and I will do some research on this and then get back to you...voted up!
From a hub standpoint, I think you hit it out of the park. You gave information that makes the reader think which is great. As a homosexual man I find it so interesting that everyone needs to know the cause to somehow validate their position. I'm completely fine just being a gay man without knowing why. What I'm not fine with is being treated by law in my country "the land of the free" as a second class citizen! Being born gay or "made" gay by environment should have nothing to do with my rights, in my humble opinion.
arb~ I completely agree wih your insight, especially with subconscience prejudices and working to affirm them.
I think that's why I had to open this up for discussion because I know majority of homosexuals maintain it is biological and I as I stated in the hub, they believe that with every fiber of their body- how can I question that. I don't question what they think, I just want to see if I can understand it better and gain insight. I have a very open mind and I realize talking about such topics can open me up to arguments against, but I people don't understand things mostly because they are exposed, purposefully or not, to things around them that confirm their prejudices. I want to get outside of that and understand from another point of view. I never gave much thought to the topic before reading about the counselor, then I realized my own experience with my father who has changed his own gender, and I put htose together to think about homosexuality.
I don't understand science studying this because that would only be based on a belief there is a right or wrong, and I don't think that's effective to try and establish one. In fact it gives more "ammo" for each side to oppose each other with.
In writing this I discovered what I think, and I hope to discover what others think and so I am not only giving myself information to build that house, as you are talking about. I'm really not willing to build a house without all the facts. In understand research and the biases that come with it so I'm here wanting other info.
izetti
I have written a hub on Sodom Revived: Gay Pride Parade about 2 years ago and it has been awarded Google First Page Rank out of 14,000 results. Those interested may read it.
http://hubpages.com/hub/sodomrevivedgayprideparade
Quoted is Tim Wilkins, director of Cross Ministry, a former gay, who is now married and has 3 children. He went to China last year to address the people.
Hope this helps.
somelikeitscott~ EXACTLY! I completely agree because I tend to have fairly conservative political views, but I dislike being lumped into a group that opposes gay rights because I don't. I don't think it's relevant if they are gay due to environment or biology. I wrote this wondering why it would matter. I also believe rights are rights and homosexuals no doubt should have them. I also find it interesting that science is even looking into a "cause".
THanks for your comment and I am a fan of yours- enjoy your hubs.
Jeanine~ thakns for reading this. I know we've discussed topics similar to this. as usual your words resonate with me because we all have those feelings you talk about, wanting to feel special, etc. I wonder about my dad of course and knowing some of his background and family, I think something went on, but in my "acceptance", I'm left wondering if something did happen or is it inborn. I don't know why I want to know but maybe just curiosity. I think unresolved feelings about his family, and if it is inborn for him then maybe that would make me feel better about his family. I am always so reserved around them because I wondered if something happened there. I guess I'd love to clear it up for myself, not to reassure myself with my dad but to reassure myself with his family.
Eiddwen~ Thanks for the comment and for reading.
sharyn's slant~ that's my experience too, but I come from a psychology background and know how much environment influences us. My feelings now say it is a mixture like the way many of us are: a combination of both.
Highvoltage writer~ yes, I've seen a study about that, and I believe gay men's brains are different than straight. The interworkings and anatomy of our brain can change from environmental factors too. I'd love to see what you've found because that was a long time ago when I saw studies about that.
einron~ thanks for the link and Congrats with the Google ranking.!! I'll check this out.
Izettl, you did a great job putting this hub together with an open mind and not judging either side. And you are so right in that it is no use in trying to establish what is right or wrong.
To me homosexuality isn’t provoking at all as long as I don’t have to be part of it! When I meet a person, I am not interested of what he/she does in the bedroom or other places if I have no plans in that direction. If I have any intentions of a relation of some sort then it is interesting since it is a vital part in all relationships.
But otherwise I am more interested of the human behind the face. And if I like a person as a friend their sexuality isn’t provoking. Interesting read! I enjoyed it!
Tina
I think thoughtforce said it perfectly. It's always about the person, and not what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom. As a christian, I can easily stand back and say, "gay is bad," but when pulled in, it's not that easy. My wife's family is the posterchild for homosexuality is biological. She has no less than 5 family members who live homosexual lifestyles, and the family would not be the same without them or their spouses! As a Christian, God says love everyone. If you exclude people because you feel they are sinning, well, you will live a lonely life, because we all sin.
Very interesting. I admire you for exploring such a controversial subject. Some of the gay people I know are very emotional about the subject and are very offended by even the hint of a suggestion that their sexual orientation may not be 100 percent biological.(How do we know it is not a mixture of biological tendencies and environmental influences?) I respect their feelings on the matter because obviously they know way more about it than I do.
I agree with your questioning whether biology really matters. We know for sure that one's physical gender is biological but I don't think doctors who agree to help people with something as radical as changing their physical sex are brought before ethics panels; so I'm not sure why someone agrees to help someone who wishes to change their sexual orientation would be. To test the role of emotion in this issue, let's flip the scenario and imagine a heterosexual man walking into a counselor's office and requesting help with becoming gay. If the counselor agreed to help the man would he or she be brought before an ethics panel?
I do agree with you Izettle, science does not determine right and wrong concerning social issues, however it gives us data from which we can determine the underlying causes which in turn may alter our views. Who then does determine right and wrong? If it is an individual determination then there will never be consensus. Science will merely give one side the ammunition they are in need of and we are back to defending prejudices rooted in our foundational images of right and wrong. I, myself am a Christian and therefore my morality is colored by my understanding of what God says is right and wrong. Having said that, there is enough wrong in my own life to deal with let alone someone elses. That does not, however, alter the constraints placed upon me by my religious holdings. For me to pick and choose which of His rules I support simply interprets principles consistant with my preferences. I would essentially create an alternate Christianity that merely suits my leanings.
Assuming Christianity is correct and that homosexuality is indeed, wrong in His eyes, then I am bound to His law and not an emerging social evolution. This leaves me in a quandry. I can both hold that such choice is in opposition to God's will and love the person apart from their choice. I remain true to the law I follow without forsaking the choice to love them apart from their choice. Condemnation and judgement are retained by the God which proposes the rule.
I would also make a distinction between something which continuously surfaces. We are all sinners. Sin is interesting for those who subscribe to the Christian faith. We sin and we know that we will sin again. If our heart recognizes sin, is contrite and sorrowful then He is just and right to forgive us. (Christian Doctrine) if we choose to live in sin and do not feel contrite or sorrowful, then He will hold us accountable. Social outcry can not insist that Christians forsake God's laws because it seems unjust. Neither can they lable it intolerent. How we treat others can certainly be measured tolerant or intolerant and there is no excuse for intolerance, however, you can not hold that Christians who accept His laws as intolerant. You could certainly hold that their God is intolerant. I would support that view, but, I would not argue with Him concerning it. Sorry for the long discourse. Somethings are not as simple as we would like them.
Very interesting and brave topic, well covered and addressed your leaving the gay lifestyle. Thanks for the resource. :) Katie
Thanks so much for stoping by Katiem2. Great to see you. I've kown both someone who became homosexual midlife and someone who changed from homosexual to heterosexual midlife so this topic is of interest to me.
thougtforce~ You make some valid points there. It's not your choice and if you don't share intimiate details about your personal bedroom life then it would seem reasonable not to want to hear it elsewhere. Even homosexuality, which could be seen as a group of people, is really about the individual- as you say the human behind the face.
Steve Mcg~ THanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I love your point, "As a Christian, God says love everyone. If you exclude people because you feel they are sinning, well, you will live a lonely life, because we all sin."
A truly wonderful hub. You are a truly talented teacher who is able to help people think outside the box.
I have lived a full life, and am a very well rounded person. I am or rather, was, bi-sexual. This simply means I can be comfortable in a relationship with either male or female. No ultimate choice is needed for this view of life.
Almost 9 years ago I lost my partner of 10 years to a massive asthma attack. I did the CPR. It was very traumatic. I knew that he was sick and would die eventually. I didn't think it would be that soon. Just before his passing he asked me what I would do after he passed over. I told him I would like to see what a relationship with a woman would be like. He said "Over my dead body." Great joke for someone who is about to die.
I have had two relationships with women in the last 8 years. The last one I married. I am very satisfied. I have found my soul mate. What I have learned about myself in that time has to do with taking responsibility for my self and what I am supposed to learn this lifetime. My bisexuality was a learning experience.
We all came to this planet to learn. No thing that we do is ultimately "wrong" when it comes down to it. The "Living God" that I met in recovery does not judge the way any of us humans do. The "Living God" learns and becomes MORE by experiencing everything we experience. To think in black, white, or gray may not ultimately be productive.
Looking at the whole nature vs. nurture aspect totally leaves out a persons' choices made before birth. We all think we are placed here by random chance. I no longer believe this. I truly believe that I made certain choices about how this life needed to go before I got here via my parents.
Nature vs. nurture is a totally mechanical view of the world. I am learning everyday that this world is far from the mechanical place with have been led to believe it is. My life is what I have made it. Making the case for saying that my bisexuality was biological is possible. Since needing to work out some karma with my partner was part of my life plan, would it not make sense that it would be part of my biology to be somewhat interested in men? Finding my soul mate this lifetime was also in my life plan, and could we not also say it was in my biology to be interested in women?
Anyway, this has been another wonderful hub. Miss izettl, if you aren't, you deserve to be making a living off the way you think and write here. Kudos.
Carolapple~ Great point about someone helping one change their sex. there are counselors that help one become transgender. If someone wants to not live as a homosexual anymore then I would assume counseling would be one route.
On your last scenario there, if the person knew thy were gay and wanted help with "coming out" or wanted info on that lifestyle, maybe it wouldn't be half bad for people to have a middle man like a counselor to talk out those thoughts. Many people with gender identity disorder or homosexuals will report first knowing they were different so maybe they would need someone to talk to. Ethics is tricky. For transsexuals, they are required to go through time living as the opposite sex and receiving counseling before completely changing. Interesting stuff, and here we're faced with a possible right or wrong on the ethics side of it.
Very interesting hub and very thought provocking. I happen to have a son that is gay and I completely think that it is biological because he showed tendecies from a very young age, that I doubt that he would ever know either way about his sexual orientation being that young to make a choice. I just knew that he was gay by the time he was about 3 years old. I really don't think that it matters whether others believe this or not. I think that some people may "choose" to lead the gay lifestyle. But I don't think that the people who are really gay would actually choose to be gay being that they are constantly discriminated against and told constantly by so called christians that they are going to hell. It makes no sense to me. I enjoyed reading your hub and you made some good points here. Thanks for the read. Cheers.
W.B Isley~ Interesting experience and thanks for sharing. I understand the bi-sexual choice. There are great reasons for being with either sex and phsycially I can understand the lure of it too. I had a bi-sexual roommate for years and learned a lot during that time- as you can imagine I picked his brain. Poor guy, but we're still great friends. He is married to a woman, 3 kids ,and is now a pastor.
When you bring karma and past lives, etc into this, there is another possibility on our plate now- more than bilogy or environment. Great insight. I don't deserve half the credit commenters give on my hubs because truly I end up learning so much from the comments. That's why i put these topics out there- I want to get outside of my box and open up. I didn't think about some of your insight you've shared and now I have more to think on.
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I hope to make a living with this type of writing when my daughter is older. Right now I do part-time work writing business blogs and newsletters.
ladyjane1~ I'm beginning to think it's a mixture and very individual. I believe you when you say you noticed the tendencies when you son was young. That's why I don't fully understand the utter shock some parents experience when they find out their child is gay. I think you were probably very perceptive. I also did some reading about babies born with both sexes. How can we argue if the body is born biologically that way that the brain can't be wired either way or both as well independent of what sex they were born?
You make good points also about choosing a harder path. It does not make sense to me either, but I know a few who have "chosen" the lifestyle. My cousin for instance would rather the discrimination than another man breaking her heart. THank you so much for giving me mroe to contemplate.
arb~ Exactly!! "Science will merely give one side the ammunition they are in need of and we are back to defending prejudices rooted in our foundational images of right and wrong." A reason I think the science is irrelevant in this area as far as those who are looking for it to prove their side or their argument. It may be useful for data purposes and reevaluating child psychology- perhaps. But for the moral issue, it should be used for that. No one can blame someone who is true to themeselves or beliefs. I also have a Christian faith and struggle with the "right" or "wrong" within our society. You are true to your faith and a gay person is true to how they feel- who can blame either? It's tough.
I found myself nodding in agreement to much of your last half of your comment. i can understand that and i think I reside on that side of the fence. We all sin or have sinned and we've labeled some as worse than others, but we aren't the ultimate judge- as you know and have pointed out. On judgement, He is often more forgiving than we would be.
Ah! We have a two person consensus. It is a start! It has occured to me that original sin was disobediance. That is what all sin is. It is all rebellion, my will against His will, therefore, in His eyes, sins do not come in degrees; They are all rebellion. Every sin hurts Him the same. I pray His grace covers them all the same. Be well.
A very good hub and well thought out. I have never looked at being homosexual ass an issue. I take it that I do not go asking straight people why they are straight.
Izetti... I'm sure something happened in his family... something happens in all families, even yours and mine that we have no control over... it's this brain... and if we have a mind to pay attention to it... for instance... if you were the most creative writer in the world...(and you may be, I really like reading you)... how would you write the perfect hub... more than likely you would write an idea that would change and yet remain the same...renewing each day so it would be fun to read... never growing old, then if you had the power to keep up with all the knowledge, you would change each hub, paragraph, sentence and finally each word ever so slight... so it would basically be changing itself... God is a very creative being... I laugh a lot when we use gender for God...and say He..and often wonder if woman had been more selfish and less nurturing would we be saying she... I loved what W.B Isley said... here in your hub, maybe we chose before we came to earth... now that's a thought... as you said we have discussed similar thoughts about the Trans community and this community is always up in the air about it... the HLBT don't think Trans are real, because we all think we are women, then half of the trans world are Lesbians, so I always want to say, wait why did you become a woman, to love a woman...lol...you finally made the cut, and now you wear a harness... it's a mess... one things for sure... we all are here together and none of us are together enough to say... we don't really know... I think I wrote to you that it was years before I felt the least bit guilty about being different... I just thought everyone had a glitch... so I think we are all affected by living with the rest of the folks here on earth... the perpetual smorgusboard of sexuality, spirituality and those things affect our emotions to the point we all veer off the beaten path or some of us veer on to the beaten path... and drive with reckless abandonment just to be on the road again....
Great read but a subject I try to stir clear of other than to say whatever happens in one's bedroom needs to stay there and off the streets and out of my living room.
Well done and should provoke some serious thought among many.
Thumbs up.
The Frog
izettl, after your last couple of hubs, I thought you might leave controversy alone for a while! Good for you. :)
Let me just add this: I know there are choices made for some later in life, but anyone who has grown up with a gay sibling can see the genetics behind it. I believe that most homosexuals have been so since birth, just as most heterosexuals have.
arb~ thanks arb. my viewpoint is obviously influenced by my faith, but of course the scientific and humanistic side of me wants to understand the study of homosexuality, the data, and the human experience. I've always left this topic alone, but my original thought on this came with reading about the counselor and wondering if it is "changeable"- just made me curious and thought of people I knew who changed mid-life. Maybe I'm realizing I wnat to understand that which is not to be understood, at least by me.
I haven't given homosexuality much thought before, but since my dad is a transsexual I have given gender identity some thought and wonder what similarities there are- not sexual orientation, but the biological and environmental aspects.
shogan~ ha! me and controversy. Nice to see you. I find myself wondering things from time to time and I like to put it out there to get various viewpoints. Maybe not the most politically correct thing to do, but I think people have become complacent about asking questions or wondering for fear of looking a certain way so we all just let it be or leave it alone- I just can't do that.
Anyway, back to your experience and your sibling is what I find interesting because many of those that are homosexual or relatives to one can swear it is biological. I guess there are clues along the way that reveal this. Do we even think about sexual orientation at a really young age and how would we pick up on sexual orientation clues when someone is 3? Even if they act more fem (for a guy) or masculine (for a girl) that could also be gendery identity disorder. My dad is a transsexual and I've thought a lot about the biology of it and environmental of it. Those folks report wanting to be the opposite sex from an early age with opposite sex characteristices early in life. With that said, how do we know what chracteristics show up early in life regarding sexual orientation when that doesn't come up until puberty-ish? Hmm, got me thinking again...
The frog prince~ That has been my stance in this topic, but I read in the news about the counselor and her offering to change a man's homosexuality and it got me curious. THanks for stopping by!
Ddraigcoch~ I don't think homosexuality itself is an issue (at least not for me), just the studying of it- we don't study heteroseuxality to "understand" it more in depth. I wonder what the purpose of studying homosexuality is and if someone wants to change from gay to straight, why that is an issue as it is with the counselor I mentioned in the hub. THank you for your perspective and comment here.
Hi Izetti, I enjoyed reading the conversation that your hub inspired. I think it's odd that people still need to know "why" someone would choose to be gay whether it be environmental or biological. I guess because it is human nature to question things you don't understand.
Jeanine~ only you have this beautiful way of explaining the impossible to explain. I guess I'm not searching for an explanation more than an understanding and you've helped me with that too. I gave a lot of thought to what W.B Isley said, along with some of the other commenters. Interesting, real people with real insight.
When I got a chronic illness (with no known cause) I discovered that autoimmune illnesses are often a mystery and the best explanation was it was always in my DNA and something in the environment triggered it. I wonder what else that explanation can be applied to, possibly the other mysteries within all the difference between people-as you more eloquently explained than I ever could.I'm still puzzled why science needs to study this as if we need a position of right or wrong or a "cure".
Thanks again Jeanine!
Dexisview~ thanks for reading. I don't understand why the need to study this either. I think I want to understand more because of the ehtics involved with the counselor (mentioned in my hub)who offered to change a man from gay to straight. I didn't see that as bad if he wanted the help, but it got me to question whether changing is considered bad or good to the gay community and why. THanks again for the comment.
Does it really matter if sexual preference is a genetic predisposition or not? From where I sit the answer is not relevant to the real issues at hand.
What we all should find morally repugnant is the violence that is bred from hatred and intolerance, not an individuals sexual preference. The murder of Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming in October of 1998 began to open the eyes of the nation, and we have finally adopted hate crime legislation.
I have no idea whether sexual preference is or is not a genetic trait, but regardless I must disagree with the following quote from your article:
"To suggest people would not leave the gay lifestyle because it is biological and inborn isn't consistent with the facts that some people do in fact leave."
Some scientific circles alledge that alcoholism is the result of a genetic predisposition. Following the rationale that an alcoholic can stop drinking, it should come as no surprise that some individuals leave behind a sexual lifestyle. Abandonment of a lifestyle should not however be construed as proof that preferential desire is gone. Alcoholics say that the desire to drink will always be present at one or a lesser degree....Is it anymore logical to think that sexual desires can be completely overcome than alcoholism?
Because it's supernatural to believe one is someone else... we only do it as children... I've often thought that about the Trans community... maybe it's not gender dysforia... maybe its some kind of... I don't want to grow up-for-ya...lol and maybe being gay is the same way... I remember when we all began to come out and we didn't think anything was wrong with it at all... then everyone began to talk about it and we are here with some kinda of debate going on... on your opinion on my life...lol... not you actually but just as a metaphor...lol... I mean think about it... we are all talking about what really none of anyone elses business...lol... and one laughs out loud just to think about it.... but factual behavior bring us a much nastier reality... which really is none of anyone business how I feel... save one... me and my creator... and I'm truly sorry for bringing it to this place of offense... but sometimes we need to say... stop doing that shit... you can't hurt person just because he doesn't play like you do... look like you and others do... he is person... and he has the capcity to love you like other he can... so hears the question to all of us... do we decided that we know better for ourselves than our creator... it's the choice thats is here... they just have a poor way of explaining down there at the church... lets learn to love... it's the only thing I'll found that I'm sure it not of this earth... I love everyone of your readers partly because they all have unique attitudes... what a read huh... you are doin it izetti... I so enjoy your words... and we all said...lol and the word was God...lol...thanks for the thought...
the capcity to love you like no other... couple of typos sorry...
Coming of age~ I don't think it should matter and I found myself believing I thought that way, but on some levels it does matter to many- on both sides of the fence. What got me thinking on this topic was how a counselor is being accused and possibly losing her license because she agreed to help a man go from gay to straight. The gay community said it was wrong of her because homosexuality is inborn and can't or shouldn't be changed, but I think if someone wants to change then why would it be bad for them to seek help from a counselor? People seek help from counselors when they want to change sexes.
You speak of hatred and intolerance, but I don't think the same group of people who live that should place that same burden on others either. The gay man who is trying to get this counselor in trouble is not doing any good by spreaing more hate. I don't think anyone would think the counselor was plotting any harm to him, but the so-called harm was helping him change from gay to straight even after he requested the help.
I personally believe homosexuality is a mix of biology and environment- our health is, pretty much everything about humans is. That's why I think it's silly science is trying tp prove one way or the other- and they'll continue to have a hard time with it.
regarding my quote, how would you explain someone who was not gay and became gay much later in life? I think we agree more than you realize because I believe some people are predisposed to various things. You absolutely right about it not mattering if it's bio or environment. If you read the first part of my hub you can see this quote "One of my goals with presenting this topic is based on why it should matter whether or not gay is biological or environmental? " I am merely presenting people with the topic that we could go back and forth on but why would it matter whether we found out it was biological or environment.
also... if there is an element of environmental factors then it would be plausible some people may want to change and seek help from a counselor.
Jeanine~ I can only imagine the level of opinions on your life you've received. I think of something miniscule like me being left-handed and all the immediate opinions, jokes, assumptions, I get on that and I think what's the big deal- I was born that way or it's just me. I can imagine that would be what it's like for you or whoever similar.
I wish my dad didn't get "looks" in public and it makes me realize just how many people don't understand. They don't hate, but just don't understand and why they feel they need to, I don't know. Understanding, for me, helps me to be closer to my dad. We all want to share human experiences and when someone is "different" than you, you want to find the common ground that binds you. You mentioned important common ground- love. And God for some.
It's not that bad for me... I was just taking a position... yet within the community there is a large group that do not want to prove that it may be biological... simply because if you find what causes it... then one can fix it... supposedly... I think the mind and the heart are so unique that time spent together results in love... and if you live your life openly... you can fall in love with either male or female... I think we all fall in love with love... and if you are carrying that special moment and share it with me... I can fall into it...lol... it's one of the reasons we are here and it's a biggie...lol.. you mentioned your faith... think about it... the disciples for instance... were they in love with what Christ was doing, miracles,teaching peace and love or were they in love with Him... I think both... but to take the death later in their lives, which each of them did, except for John the beloved, one would assume it was more than admiration...that brings us to the humanity of the moment... Christians will be the first to say, "The devil distorted real love and two men or two women laid together"... God knows we give that guy to much credit... it's simpler than that... the human spirit is so amazing, it will perceive the problem and try and resolve the conflict... I love that...
It is wrong for anyone to hold the therapist liable for trying to help... but that's another hub you wrote right... about political correctness... I so enjoy reading you and thanks for letting me comment... makes me feel like somebody... "everybody loves somebody sometimes...lol..lol..lol... unfortunately most of the HLBT community has been hurt so much, they are willing to hurt anyone just to feel better about themselves... and that's tragic... we have to educate one another, peace is not just a word that is dating Love... it's just as important and only comes when I can accept you and you accept me for the beauty that lies within each of us... the beauty you know... is different from the beauty I know.. and we are both missing out if we choose not to share... thank you for sharing with all of us Izetti... makes it so real for me...
Hi Iztti....I think you're correct that we agree on more than we do not, and certainly the hate and intolerance cuts both ways. We are a nation of hypocrites screaming for freedom of expression, but denying it to others when their expresions are offensive to our own sensibilities.
No therapist should lose their license for counseling an individual to an end that is desired, as long as that end is not harmful to others. I think however that where the line get blurry is that the gay community wants recognition that their sexual preference is natural, so from that standpoint it would be akin to my asking a therapist to counsel me on becoming purple. I can obviously never become purple unless by an un-natural process. By that sort of reasoning, what the gay commnity sees is an overall harmful effect from a single individual who seeks counseling to change the way they were born because it promotes an ideal that homoexuality is not normal. That would of course mean that something is wrong and requires "fixing", whether genetic or not.
The real problem here is not the single individual asking for help to make a desired change, but a violation of doctor patient confidentiality. As long as the counseling remains private, the promotion of an ideal that says people can change their stripes never comes into the public realm. Once such an instance does make it into the community however, voices will be heard, especially from those who percieve that they are being attacked by an ideal that says they are somehow less a a natural part of the human condition than a heterosexual.
Even if people are born with a genetic predisposition, and that is one day proven beyond any doubt, the issue is not going to be over. Just like in the alcoholism analagy, this can still be viewed as an anomoly that is not the norm. Their is one big difference though, and that is that the drunk has a condition that is potentially harmful to others. If my neighbor is gay he is not hurting anyone, so why should it matter?
As far as your question: "how would you explain someone who was not gay and became gay much later in life?"....There are three possible explanations: That individual was either always gay and living a lie, they are experimenting, or they have always had an attraction to both sexes.
Homosexuality is an interesting and sensitive topic, instigating too many theories and opinions which offer no solution to the SO CALLED problem. I never had the desire to judge and condemn or even criticize people in this social category, just as I never had the desire to do this to people with other physical or emotional deviations. My heart goes out to all people who are not like the majority. I honestly don’t have respect for the majority who appoint themselves as critics, judges and condemners of others. I take my hat off for all individuals in minority groups who have to survive in this world without the respect and love of their SO CALLED normal fellowman. No matter what the reason is for them being different, they deserve just as much love and respect as any other human being.... respect because they are people. Come to think of it, exactly why do individuals in the main stream deserve love and respect? What exactly have they done to earn it?
Excellent hub, Izet! Your objective and ‘live-and-let-live’ approach deserve applause.
Jeanine~ my point exactly. I don't think it's beneficial to find a cause because it's not a problem. Now the problem seems to be for a gay man who went undercover to get a counsleor in trouble for offering her services to help him. If it was proven to be bilogical then she'd be clear of this instead I think it's a fight that was wrongly provoked an it's too bad. It's passing around that hurt you were talking about. I am sorry for various communities of people having to experience hurt and I am sorry peopl are provoked to deal with it in the same way by hurting others.
I totally get your point about Christ and his disciples- that was more than just admiration, I aqgree, and there are loves on various levels and of various kinds.
Thank you for the comment about my ojective- it's true. I think if people, even for myself, if we can understand differences we can stumble on similarities an focus on those instead. The human spirit is in all of us- no matter what's on the outside. The need to accpeted and loved is also so important that we end up with more hate because of our fears of rejection. I completely enjoy our little comment discussions too.
such a brighter writer... very readable... and informative... I too enjoy the comments... and discussions... thanks for including all of us... here on your site...
Hi, I believe that there are so many factors that make someone gay, it can't be ever scientifically worked out, some become gay because of choice, but mainly I believe it is inbuilt. I studied psychology for four years and we covered gender. in the womb a baby can be influenced by how much tostesterone or estrogen it is flooded with in the first few months, if a boy has less tostesterone it is possible he will become gay. we have to remember that in the animal kingdom there are many animals that change sex or are gay, fish change sex all depending on their invironment and how many mates they can find, and animals especially monkeys will procreate with both male and female, so I believe it is just nature, cheers nell
I was drawn to your hub because I have a friend that left the gay lifestyle over a decade ago. He is now happily married with children. He simply changed his path and we never really talked about it. Interesting topic!
Coming of age~ We do agree on a lot and I see your point about changing something that doesn't seem possible to change and the question is if it's ethical.
From my viewpoint, I know of many counselors who help people transition from male to female or female to male- transsexuals. If a man comes to a counselor and says he wants to be a woman, it is OK for the counselor to help him, yet he's not asking to be purple or to be the impossible. Neither would a gay man wanting to be straight be unheard of or impossible. I think gay could be inborn and so is straight so either decision is valid, even if they want help from a counselor. Men wouldn't find it offensive when another man goes to a counselor to become a woman. That person was born a man and that's natural, but if he wants to be a woman and he had always felt that way, there aren't many groups of men protesting the idea. The person essentially was born a man, but wants to leave that lifestyle to be a woman- nobody thinks being a man is wrong or takes offense to that.
I completely agree with you about the debate on natural or not- it will always exist in spite of science. I think any science on it is silly. I'm not trying to debate that really either, but just the part about the counselor struck a nerve with me.
Great conversation.
Martie~ hi there. I have your same view, but I guess what caught my attention was the counselor possibly losing her job and license because she offered to help a gay man that came to her for help to be straight. If he wanted to be straight, that is the problem. I understand the problem to mean homosexuality is not inborn then if people can change, but I don't think it should be taken offensively if someone wants to be gay or become straight after being gay- inborn or not. Maybe some people want to experiment, then decide to be totally straight again. I don't think either gay or straight people should worry about whether it's inborn biologically or not. If someone wants to change, let it be their choice, not the gay community or any groups of people.
Nell Rose~ wonderful points about animals and I believe the same way that there are too many factors for science to pin down for a definitve answer. For a gay community to be upset when someone wants to go back to being straight and seek help from a counselor, I don't think that's right. It is a personal, not a group or community decision.
Schoolmarm~ i've also had friends who've switched and I don't see anything wrong with it- some people I know have also become gay after half a life of being straight. I dont know why either occurs really. Thanks for the comment.
My view is that if someone wants to change people shouldn't get in trouble for helping them. I've actually studied sexual lifestyles to some extent and what effects it has on the brain. I believe we were sent to feel temptation, as a test. As with all of us not everyone's temptation is the same. I do believe that some modern things could be to blame for the rise of homosexuality such as birth control (documented), however, this doesn't explain the age old question of homosexuality as it has been around since just about the beginning of man.
When you give in to certain sexual acts when feeling temptation, your brain is releasing all sorts of chemicals.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm comparing gays to sexual addicts, below, because I'm not. I just want to further illustrate the way your brain changes when you climax.
(I know this isn't the case for some gays, but just hear out the hypothetical situation) So there's the initial temptation. Some boy might see another boy naked at a young age and become aroused because they have never seen anyone before. This could lead to wanting more stimulation because they have never experienced what this is. It could lead to more of it down the road. When you are young your brain is growing incredibly fast and is making all sorts of new connections. There is no other time when there are greater impacts on your brain than when you are young and/or climaxing. You are building new brain circuitry (as you are your whole life). This leads to a sexual preference and I'll explain why. Sexuality is developed while you are growing and due to something in your environment. Even genes can be changed due to your own willing. I forgot what genes these are called, but they can actually be turned off and replaced. (This is how evolution happens to some degree.)
Now, as a recovering porn addict, I can tell you there are people out there who are actually addicted to these things and do not enjoy the lifestyle. They hate it more than anyone, it's disrespectful to others and themselves. Let me explain how this happens.
(Readers digest version) There is a chemical that is released during certain times in your brain called norepinephrine. This chemical creates a strong connection to certain things. Like when a mother has a baby, or when a father holds his baby for the first time it floods the brain. (This is my own personal belief but I think that what the human soul deals with, the brain creates physical emotions for chemically). When this chemical floods the brain during climax however, we become extremely sexually attached to it. This actually goes into why a lot of people have weird sexual brain circuitry. Like people finding arousal from inanimate objects.
If someone is living a lifestyle that they don't like and want to change it, the methods used are extremely important. It is not about white knuckling it through your temptations, but real help. It's ok to feel guilty about some things, but don't feel ashamed. We're here to struggle, and there are plenty more like you. Some changing methods are extremely harmful, however. If anyone is dealing with any unwanted sexual desires I recommend candeocan.com. It's more for porn addicts than it is anything else. Even though it deals a little with God and spirituality it's just about the most helpful and scientifically informative recovery site out there. I can't remember if they have something for homosexuals who want to change as well, but it still will give you a great understanding of the brain.
I say if people want to change, more power to them.
Hello again Izetti - "I know of many counselors who help people transition from male to female or female to male- transsexuals. If a man comes to a counselor and says he wants to be a woman, it is OK for the counselor to help him, yet he's not asking to be purple or to be the impossible."
I think there is a distinct difference here. In the quote above, you make reference to counselors helping individuals to become transsexual, but I have always understood the process to be one of helping an already emotionally transgenered individual to be certain and fully aware of the consequences associated with the physical transition involved with that process. The counselor in that case is not helping someone be different, but instead helping them to cope with the emotional consequences of the difference they have already acknowledged. It is the surgeon who helps them become transsexual, and that makes the point because the surgery itself is the un-natural process.
I also view a distinct difference between homosexuality and the transgendered individual. Believing themselves born the wrong sex in physical appearance is not the same as sex attraction.
This is all very complex, and it speaks volumes about the diversity of human beings. Fears drive so much of our own feelings on these isues. Fear that our own children may inherit a gene that's hiding out in a dark corner of our own DNA strand, fear that our own lifestyle may somehow be threatened if we acknowledge and accept diversity, fear, fear, fear. I don't know most of the answers about these things, but I do know that God created us all the same in more ways than many would care to admit. I have no idea the extent to which people can change things that are an inherent part of their individual make-up, but sometimes real change does occur. My feeling is that it is us, the so-called "normal" ones who need to make the biggest change. We need to abandon fear, insecurity, prejudice, hatred, and intolerance...That is the only lasting cultural change that will make a real differnce.
coming of age~ I see the difference in trasgender and homosexuality, but I still view it as the person wants to change is coming for help from a counselor. THe counselor did not seek out just any gay person. There certainly are blurred lines there.
I see it as believing one was born the wrong sex and believing one was born attracted to the "wrong" (same) sex, but in gays I see the women more masculine and the man more feminine- not always but mostly so to me there is a feeling within them that feels more part of the other sex as to which they were born. I haven't looked into that fully so I'm just stating a rough opinion here.
Your last paragraph says it all. Fear and insecurity drive hate and intolerance and that has to be the biggest change. Great words there!
A thought~ you know...you have some great points there. I saw some studies that found more homosexuals were raised in cities compared to less found in rural smaller towns- interesting because what you said about "modern things" and temptation.
You gave a wonderful explanation here of how the brain works with our sexuality and your example of the young boy seeing another makes sense. I am amazed at how and what our brain makes connections to things and when we are exposed to things we don't yet understand as kids- the brain makes up a story for us, really. It makes a connection that we may not even realize and becomes part of a story we grow up with.
Nobody should be afraid to seek help and this recourse the counselor is going through for wanting to help a gay man because he sought help, is silly. It is stating that nobody else should seek help for changing.
I really appreciate your input here and thanks for dropping a link to a helpful resource.
What we fear we hate.
What we hate we try to destroy.
Anonymous
F.E.A.R. - False Evidence Appearing Real
Another perspective from the past life concept. If someone has been a male for a few lifetimes before this one and has chosen to be female this go 'round. They will appear more masculine. If someone has been a female for a few lifetimes before this one and has chosen to be male this go 'round. They will appear more feminine.
I love what 'A thought' said above "... I think that what the human soul deals with, the brain creates physical emotions for chemically." This is brilliant! It gives full credence to the idea that we are more than our bodies. When it comes down to it, we really are in charge of our bodies, not the other way around.
A big question becomes, 'Do we really want to ignore temptation and change our response, or have we become so identified with the chemical responses that we can no longer believe we are capable of any other response?' Do we believe we are our bodies or do we remember we are MORE and make the effort to act on that?
I agree with your original point izettl, if someone wants to change something about themselves and seeks help, who are we to say that is not acceptable? I don't necessarily agree with a couple of the therapists' statements and, hey, if that method works then use it. Why bring her up on charges? Let time and results weed out those who aren't effective.
It is telling though, that some in the Homosexual community are starting to question the basic premise that they have chosen to believe about themselves. Coming from a recovery background the phrase, "Once an addict, always an addict." was pounded into us. I no longer believe this. So, is it necessary for a Homosexual to believe that they are stuck with such a credo for themselves. 'Once a homosexual, always a homosexual.' I think not. We are free to change anytime WE make the choice to change, and not a second before.
A thoughtfull artical!
However! Have to question the statement"we all know what's in the bible"--Most folks don't know-they only think they know!
For instance"Abomination" The Jewish meaning of the word(at that time) was"Not of our custom"(this at a time when the Jews thought they might become extinc-so having babies was important)!
I won't say that there is a cause of homosexualiy-But it is-Just what is so "Harmfull" that it needs "CURED"?(anymore than being left handed)?
If this needs "Cured" then I would think that it should be much the same as folks who "Believe" in any religion--They have made a choice to believe in something that can't be proven to be real--So mabe they need treatment for being delusional!
Now--I see that as ridiculious But It is the same (Flawed) logic!
It is not your business or mine to judge Gays. I think Gay is probably not a choice, but no matter. I have enough things to concern myself with other than making a person feel guilty by being gay. If you really are a conservative then stop trying to tell other people how to live and what morals they should follow. Can you not simply take your GOD and NOT insist being GAY is not something one should even try and change? Of course some Gay's change. We put so much guilt and pressure on them some also commit suicide. You and your CHRIST put that in your pipe and smoke it.
In reality... Christ received all people... rich, poor, healed and unhealed.... even you and I... or if you think a lot of yourself... especially you and I... lol... just because they explain it poorly down at the church doesn't mean He's not a great God... think of it this way... when all the consumer video gear came out of Japan... the instructions didn't tell you what it would really do... did that stop us from buying an $800. piece that would do the same work as the 25k piece... He still loves you and not because I'm trying to get you to believe or join something or any of that stick... it's just so and you know it.. I did even have to tell you... you knew it right... we're being loved by a God... sounds Mythical... but it's true...
As a gay man, I wanted to thank you for posting such an interesting hub that was unbiased, and without siding one way or the other. I completely agree that one's rights as a human being should not matter at all. Human is human no matter how they are or who. I thank you for an insightful hub on a very thoughtful topic that opens minds to possibilities and not in purpose of bashing or persuasion. You are truly a gifted writer and I applaud you. =) I vote up and will follow.
Terry- I know you as a liberal and forgive me for being presumptuous but aren't you supposed to be for people having choices. What business is it of gay right activists if another gay person wants to seek counseling for changing if that is THAT PERSON'S PERSONAL CHOICE? The counselor I am referring to doesn't go around seeking gay people to change and therefore the only thing I am referring to here is that gay activists should not discourage someone to not change if that is their choice. Have you talked to someone who has changed? Were they forced or pressured?
I am not judging gays- if you read my hub- I simply have questions I am curious about. I am tired of the attitude from people that because I'm not gay that I have no right to talk about it or have questions. I have questions and although you may think them ignorant, I have no way to overcome my ignorance with someone like you ridiculing me for bringing up anything to do with gays. How are people supposed to talk about these "sensitive" topics and learn about them if people stomp on them for talking about them. I write hubs and talk about heterosexual issues and relationships all the time so I'm not singling out gays. I try to make sense of heterosexuals all the time and I do it on hubpages because for the most part it is an intelligent community and I learn a lot from commenters.
My main topic of discussion here is why it is important to establish whether gay is inborn or environmental? You mentioned none of that in your comment to me I understand so it to be that you didn't get the point of my hub and that's OK.
Eric Prado~ You get it! Thank you for reading. I felt you got the idea of my hub and my point. I am truly not opening "gay" up as a discussion but rather why it should matter if it's environmental or inborn. I also didn't understand why a counselor would be punished for helping someone change form gay to straight if that's what they truly wanted. I would think it would also be helpful to see a counselor if someone was was gay and anted help with "coming out". I just think the research in this area will do more harm than good. I don't need to know why someone is gay- if they are so be it. What would studying this prove? THank you for reading and following.
Jeanine~ thank you for your words and I believe God loves all too. He knows what's in our hearts.
Brilliantly written, thought provoking and it doesn't look for easy answers. There is always going to be this dispute as people vary in their opinions about nature vs nurture. I agree with you about the counselor- her methods may have proved 'controversial' but she perhaps genuinely felt she was helping somebodies sexual confusion. There seems to be a demonisation of someone wanting to help someone who openly stated they need help but maintained the subterfuge. It wasn't like she campaigned for active 'conversion therapy' ?
I have no problems with a person's sexuality but do get perturbed at militant views that are too black and white without any 'fuzzy logic' that is very essence of humanity. thanks for an interesting read!
Woah!!! I will answer short compared to all the others, I have male and female friends who have been married, in relationships with the opposite sex, then it fails so they try again, then it fails so they try again, and then they end up in a same sex relationship "Because its easier Stu."
Take science and the other stuff out of the equation. Many folks are unsure of sexuality throughout life, I suggest go there and find out!!!
Docmo~ thanks for stopping by and the wonderful compliments. I completely agree with you about the black and white- humanity is 99% gray area. We're complex so there is never one cut and dry answer for most things.
swb64~ Love your comment! You give some great examples. I think mny of us, if your strike early messages of female and male attriutes from our childhood would be largely bi-sexual or at least bi-curious. This is why I think people can be gay then straight or straight then gay. It may depend on what you are looking for. Men have similar sex drives, women are relationship oriented. I have a cousin that has been in a same sex relationship for ten happy years and she was straight prior to that for many years. She simply stated she got tired of the way men were in relationships and her heart had been broken by many of them to the point of no repair. I think you have it right about taking science and the other stuff out of it.
I believe that people who say that "homosexuality is a choice" and who claim to -have been- "gay" themselves only say that because its truly easier to be heterosexual. As a lesbian in a gay marriage we as a couple are faced with discrimination, hate, violence, and pure hate, who would want all that? But like I've said before, my love for my wife is stronger than someones hate. And like Lady Gaga said, "I'm beautiful in my way, 'Cause God makes no mistakes,I'm on the right track, baby I was born this way."
xxmiss~ I believe it my be different for everyone- some are born that way, others it's a lifestyle choice. To believe one way or the other is to not allow for human differences. Regarding the discrimination, that's tough. i experienced that in a different scenario- biracial relationship and it was awful. You and your wife must be in love to be able to withstand the ignorant hate people display. That part of the deal isn't fair. THanks for the comment.
I am sure much has already been said but I will add my own two pennies worth.
A friend of mine used to say she was Gay but now has a boyfriend and two kids. A male friend of mine is gay but sometimes feel trapped by his Gay identity and wished he could explore the world of women more freely but feels he would be shunned by his community..
I don't think it is biological in the sense that Gay, Straight and Bi are labels created by society.
I don't think babies are born Gay but may be brought up in more open minded environments where they will feel more free to express themselves, or negative environments which may push them away from the opposing sex for psycological reasons and a whole host of other reasons.
what ever we think we must understand that the negative shit comes from uptight, stiff faced religious fucks who believe purity is found in some boring monogamous life long relationship.
the mind is born free of labels, this world is free of labels, don't put lables on yourself and you to can be free
and screw who you want ; )
dswan9, I do agree on many things you mention - but not on the swearing front for this Hub, but that swearing front could be worthy of a future blog?!
dswan9~ you've got a passionate argument there, complete with an f-bomb, but you have great points- you really do. We are born without labels and free to be, but actually it is the gay community who insists you can't be changed. If you are gay or bi or straight, that is it. You even stated in your comment how someone you knew was afraid of the gay community's reaction to him being bi-curious or trying a straighter lifestyle. And yes, extreme religious folk have their narrow-minded views, but I really see narrow-mindedness on both sides of the extreme. One says you shouldn't go there and the other says you shouldn't go back there because as you say we should be able to screw who we want.
swb64~ funny and tactful- thanks.
fair enough, and on hindsight not sure about the swearing myself..maybe i got carried away....I worry sometimes that what you say could be misconstrued by the more extreme religious mindsets and used against people who are just trying to be themselves....
I had just read a whole blog on the bible/sodomy issue.The blog had 14000 hits she proudly displayed, and she had censored all the comments to be towards her view point.
I found this incredible.If someone had written a blog extolling the virtues of Nazism and the genocide of the Jews would it still be up now ?
However
i also understand that there is bias on both sides of the coin....
I have tried to avoid labeling myself over the years because my experiences are always changing. It seems we are determined to pigeon hole ourselves in some way and hence look around for things that make sense to us.
Take a label, adopt a lifestyle, and try and fit in. Of course when habits and desires change as they often do, then many issues arise.
I think the gay community would worry about someone turning straight because it could add ammunition to the religious community that being gay is just a choice and therefore certainly a sin, and something that could be changed, or in their way should be changed.
As far as labels are concerned I have decided to stick with an 'open minded human being' : )
we should all be free to choose whatever label we wish, follow the lifestyle we choose and change whenever we want. As long as we do not harm others in the process.
Heather~ that's my view too. Almost anybody can me tricked to seem like we're doing something wrong- why there is so many lawsuits. People interpret things the wrong way and I think this was the case here.
dswan9~ middle of the road viewpoints are always miscontsrued by extremists on either side. I think the gay activists misconstrued the counselor's intentions. Extreme religious will warp things too- it goes both ways.
being religious I am lumped into certain groups and traits and sadly so are any "group" of people. You seem to understand the biases. It's too bad ammunition is taken in this form to hurt another, but you are right.
I completely agree with your last comment there- thanks for coming back.
Sex is just sex!!
As long a your not hurting anyone in anyway
Just why should it bother anyone else?
I don't think society has been this "Bothered" about Sex since the 50s!
A lot of folks are acting like all this is something new(folks don't accept change well)!
There has been sex as long as there's been animals(including the human animal)
Why are we so preocupied with others sex lives at this point in history?
The mind is like a parachute-It only works when it's open
cuckholddon~ you bring up a lot of good questions. My main question when writing this hub was why is science studying homosexuals? I can't see a productive purpose. Thanks for your comment.
I think it was very decietful for the reporter to lie for a story. He should be ashamed. As for the councelor, she was doing her job helping a person who claimed to want her help. As for the big question, in my personal opinion Gays are made not born. Many gay men are the younger brothers that had older brothers used them sexualiy at an early age. Basically gay men are people who never grew past the "Playing Doctor" stage of their sexual development. As I said this is my opinion and I don't exspect everyone to agree with it.
ruffridyer~ I can't help but think if I was in the counseor's position, I would have wanted to help them per their request. I respect your opinion and much of what you say has some truth to it. Many homosexuals have had a history of being sexually abused. Sad, but true.Thank you for stopping by.
One way to see this is like looking at taste-buds on your tongue that makes you like something and not like something else. Everyone is different in this sense. It has to do with the communication between the tongue and the brain with the help of nerves. You can't go to a counsellor and say; I want to stop liking strawberries and like blue berries instead. There is some possibility to like blue berries if you haven't before, but it is not as easy to stop liking strawberries. The similar with liking women or men. If you once were attracted to women, it is not so easy to stop being attracted to them, but it may be easy to start getting attracted to men (or vice versa).
Another way to see this, is removing the genders in this. Pheromones; if you are attracted to a person, you are attracted to them. Full stop. Why does it matter what genders they are? You will still love them the same way. Having to label people in terms of who they are attracted to, makes no sense for me. Why needs there be therapy to get them to love someone else, after they fall in love with someone?
People may be born homosexual, heterosexual, or like many philosophers say - people could be born bisexual. Why does it matter? Science fell into this game because people wanted to know why people are different. Why does that matter? I don't react when I see a red head in the crowd. Why would I react when I see two women kissing? People are just not used to it. It's ok. I understand. But maybe they should cherish the differences instead of removing them.
I don't think it is environmental; a conclusion based on a study, people get attracted to people who are very different genetically so as to avoid inbreeding. This would be done with so called pheromones. I would assume that this would happen regardless of the gender; but being attracted to people of the same-sex, does not contribute to their "fitness" as they will not be able to reproduce as much.
I am homosexual and a biologist. I've always been intrigued by my sexuality, mostly because everyone else is intrigued by it. On the other hand, I tend to forget that; I live myself like everyone else. Science that doesn't know for once why women get attracted to men, and vice versa, how can they do a study to figure out why men get attracted to men and women to women? It is odd that science tries to prove my love to my partner. Then again, considering that there are other animals (and there are many different species) that also show homosexuality behaviour; doesn't that show that homosexuality is natural and innate? Animals don't make a concious choice; they get attracted to one, and that's it. There is no more questioning about it.
Well that was my input in the discussion. Thank you for this post, it was very interesting.
Khris~ I followed you a little on the berry analogy, but it is possible to change your palate. Anyway, great points about pheremones and liking who you like. Some people are simply and unexplainably attracted to certain people. I don't place a lot of faith on science- I have an autoimmune disease that has no cause or cure so science has already lost it's power with me. What I find interesting is why we are taking the time to study it when we could be putting more effort into something important like curing cancer, etc. I just don't know what will be proved by studying homosexuality.
I thank you for an intelligent discussion on this and your insight as well. You have wonderful points.
izetti, I understand what you are saying but have a problem with your reasoning. You seem to be dismissing science based on it's failures in your particular case. My feelings on this is that the group that knows the most about what makes a homosexual a homosexual is the homosexual. Most of the arguements I see are from non scientific people arguing with the scientists. They support their position with nothing more than beliefs.
What will be gained from studying homosexuality is the unavoidable government acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle. As this is a legal matter and the constitution of this country is based on the law of the land, god's law what ever that may be, won't come into play once reality sets in. At some point in time All Men Are Created Equal, will mean just what it says. Once everyone out thewre accepts that their rights end right where their nose does, this country will begin the second half of our experiment. Until any one group is forbidden from setting themselves up as judge and jury of everything American, this country will not focus on what's really important. What you or I do in our private lives is none of my or your business. It effects the other in no way, form or fashion. As far as curing cancer goes, when was the last time a drug company released a pill that cured an illness? All they do is treat the symptom and cause more problems. Those who believe the drug companies and insurance companies actually want to see you well, are usually the oneswho don't believe in scientific discoveries.
The fact that I am not gay affects your life no differently than if I was? The fact that I might marry in either case affects your personal life in no way. Why do so many fight something that affects them in no way and helps multitudes of Americans? I thought that was WJWD.
stumpparrish~ I kind of agree with you on the idea that homosexuals understand homosexuality best and in my health case (others too) it would seem natural to believe that someone who has a health condition understands that condition best. BUT people rely on scientists and doctors to help them understand it. My reasoning is not off by much. People should know their bodies best but we don't, we go to counselors to help with the mental issues, doctors for the physical, life coaches to understand our life so to suggest homosexuals know homosexuality best- not sure about that. They know who they are, but not why and neither do the rest of us. I know I have an illness but not why either.
I think we agree on the lack of purpose to study homosexuality. I wasn't stating we should- most of my hub was written about a counselor who offered a guy who claimed he wanted to not be gay anymore some help. So who are the gay to judge whether or not someone wants to not be gay? That's what's interesting. Many people, gay and otherwise, fight for people to be gay and left alone, given normal rights, etc. but what I question is why they would be upset about someone else's choice to not be gay anymore? They should give respect to that person's choice as they wish to have respect for theirs. But a gay community is trying to get this counselor to lose her license. I don't think that is right.
Izetti... you are right, so many times when we are fighting for our own rights we encroach own others, we are blinded by the light so to speak. Also the hurt has been so great that sometimes we will not see the pain of others, we just want ours to cease... you only hurt the ones you love... or in this case the ones who love us... I love that you tackle anything, any subject, anytime. Such a brave one you are...
Jeanine~ I think it's important that people understand and learn about what we don't understand- this keeps us from blindly accepting or not accepting something. So many people believe what they believe just based on taking a side or bias info passed onto them, and not knowing why they have certain beliefs.
Anyway, I think you have a great point about thos hurting others wanting to relieve their own pain. You always make me see things in another light. I like that ansd it is why I open topics up for discussion.
izettu, I agree that some people use science to understand things in our world. My problem is with those who don't. Too many of these so cslled christians use the bible to understand every aspect of their lives, and here's the problem, the lives of every living creature.
I admit I am biased in my beliefs as most others are. I tend to side with those who believe that science has the best chance of explaining the world we live in.
I am quite certain that science hasn't come up with the final answer to this subject but the fact they still seek answers based upon inquiry and dont simply accept an answer that fits with what uneducated people claim. I fail to see how anyone can arrive at the correct answer if they never ask a question about it. I also have a problem with those who believe that the answer to any and all questions was supplied over 2000 years ago. The book that supplies these answers has been revised and rewritten to suit the mindset of the person doing the translation. I don't know of any book of knowlegde that isn't updated as new knowledge is uncovered.
In regards to your cousin, I have to wonder if she made a choice or simply stopped fighting the truth. Is it possible that she had her heart broken that many times due to internal frustrations? For years she attempted to live the lifestyle other felt where right for her. After years of being disappointed she simply stopped fighting her true biological make up? This would indicate that the only choice she made was to be true to herself.
I again repeat that I have no personal experience with the internal struggle many homosexuals have accepting who and what they are.
In regards to the counselor, my first reaction is to disagree with her technique. However, I do not know if this was known to be part of her practice.
I don't trust these undercover news investigations. True journalism is a thing of the past and most of these so called investigations simply seek to present a preconceived idea or explanation. How do we know that the counselor didn't make it clear that she was using christianity as part of her treatment plan? It's not often I find myself supporting or defending christians, lol. I Would also assume that a counselor may change a treatment plan based on information they gather during the treatment of their patient.
I also feel that one of the primary reasons there is so much scientific study concentrating on homosexuality has to do with the quanity of uneducated opinions being distributed as fact. If homosexuals were treated as simply another citizen, we would have the need to spend countless hours and dollars trying to prove the christians wrong.
Most of the opposition to accepting homosexuals come from the christian faith and this opposition is based on what? A non scientific book written 2000 years ago. People today actually believe that all knowledge that will ever be discovered is found in one book that very few people have the ability to understand.
As you stated, your cousin is now a happy, content, person. Why is this not good enough for so many people? Why does her happiness make so many people unhappy with their own lives? Why do so many christians need for the rest of the world be miserable, simpy so they can feel better about themselves. Finally as I often state, how do so many undereducated or uneducated people arrive at the conclusion that they know more about the world they live in, than all the scientists who have dedicated their lives to studying it? I regularly come across people here in the bible belt armed with their 8th grade education, Stating that they know everything about everything. They know for a FACT that homosexuality is a choice. They know for a FACT the world is only 6000 years old and they know for a FACT that the entire muslim faith is trying to kill them for being christian.
I disagree with using the bible to counsel a preson unless they prefer that the it be included in their treatment. To state that the bible should be removed from a christian counselor's arsenal of tools to be used in treating christians, would be an assinine statement on my part. Had the investigator stated that they didn't approve of this style of treatment, I am sure the counselor would have changed tactics. What is more likely is this is exactly what the so called jouralist was seeking in the first place.
Most of the stories about people leaving the homosexual lifestlye seem to be coming from the christian style boot camps. These grew out of the scare them straight campaign that was, and still is, being used on children. It is usually the fire and brimstone fundamentalist preachers and business owners who believe in and practice this form of brainwashing. I have yet to come across one of these conversion camps that isn't funded by and run by a religious group. I am, as always, stating that my opinions come from a lack of education about this subject. If more people would admit that they don't have a clue about every aspect of what makes this world go round, we would all be facing less of the hatred we currently have to deal with. Nothing makes me pay less attention to someone than a total lack of experience and education about the subject they claim to have all the answer for. Nothing makes a person more convinced that they know everything about a subject than knowing nothing about the subject. I Don't Know is not that hard of a statement to repeat and admit.
Stump Parrish~ i definitely see your point, especially about my cousin- we don't really know unless we're tht person. Just from going to school for psychology there are so many variable unexplained or without hope of explaining. My own personal life (mostly health) and what I learned while doing research psychology has me a little less enamoured with science overall. I see the weakness because of my bias and you see the weakness in the bible and religion. If only news investigations had to go through the same rigor of weeding out bias that science has to uphold.The journalist had a point to prove and sought to get the lady in trouble because she reportedly helped other gay men change their lifestyle because they wanted to live a heterosexual life. And just as we should be happy for gays to live their life, they should be happy for those that decide to be straight. That person was acting on a bias and demonstrating that which they do not like, unacceptance. The counselor actually has a gay son and has not mentioned he be changed.
Some Christians will admit that the bible does say love one another and this would literally mean loving homosexuals, but the meanings have been misinterpreted for years by various religions. I am a person of faith and a belief in God, but I'm not too fond of religions and the people that uphold them.
I'll admit it, "I don't know", but I always have a lot of questions. Thanks for stopping by again.
Aw Stump I'm sorry ... I've realized after many years... you can't fix stupid...you are so funny in that you say, why this and why that... I love that... sound like when we were all younger, I know this God you speak of... yes I fell in love with the Christians God... no so much with them as their God... you are right... we would be better off without all the religion... reality is they are just like you and I... except they are afraid and have not always had the same opportunities that some of have... to openly live on the plateaus of emotion is sometimes easier than looking at ones life... we are all creatures of habit, a lot of us here in the South were just taught to try and know the spiritual side of themselves... so think about it... many are called but few are chosen... Jesus did come as a very simple type man... a carpenter... but He got some real smart men to write the book He said He was in... and it turned out He is in it...lol... forgive me, I couldn't resist...lol... I do feel your pain and have wondered many of the things you bring up... back to the writing... Moses wrote a lot of the old testament, He would have been Pharaoh and Paul who was known as Saul to the Romans may have had the chance to become Caesar.. he was a citizen,high up in the church, known in the community, definitely knew about how to draw a crowd, he had made a living killing Christians. I say this to say, some of us are educated as well.. and some of us tell the stories of what this God is doing today... in our own lives... again I'm sorry for how the church has treated you..."I asked her, are you bitter at the Church, she said no... just tired of encouraging mediocrity"... I enjoyed your read... very passionate... I love that...
This is interesting, i have never been exposed to this form of seeing things. I am A christian, and i have heard everything people have used in the bible to go against Gays, and everything like that. Now we must know that the bible was written by humans who at a certain time held to certain traditions. This view of the world is not meant to be universal, and people s this to condemn gays all the time. The fact of the matter is a lot of those bible passages can't be take seriously, and literally. I mean one of the passages comes from Leviticus. Which states that if a Man sleeps with another man, it is an abomination, but guess what that same book says eating shrimp is an abomination, sowing the same type of seeds in the same place is an abomination, wearing cloth and linen together is an abomination. All of these things are ridiculous. We must realize at that time, this was their traditions. There are many other passages to, but from what scholars know, these views were just views people had back then, these are man made laws, Not God made laws. Trust me everybody, this whole persecuting gay thing was is just another example of the bible being misused to support something wrong. they've done this with racism, segregation, slavery, Putting down women, and so much more. Now all those people that claim to be "Fixed" usually aren't. Trust me, if your forced to believe that what you are is shameful, evil, at one point that will take hold of you and you will suppress your feelings enough to convince yourself whatever it is your being forced to believe. there are many people who have gone through these programs, and they did not help, and they were so utterly convinced that what they were was evil, so they go and kill themselves, because they could not change who they were. Now I'm not trying to start up a whole debate about whether it is right or wrong, I just thought I would put that information out for Food for thought
Check this Documentary on the whole gay matter
it will definitely put a new perspectives on things
It's called "Fish Out of Water"
here's a link to a description of it on Google
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=fish+out+
Good hub though, there were some things i wasn't aware of and this hub brought it too light, I'm not trying to undermine it, just put forth some information, good day and cheers
thought-provoking~ you make some excellent points here. I am with you in that I don't appreciate the Bible to be used in such a way that it conveniently supports one's own agenda.
Thank you for posting a link and I'll check it out. I think there are many perspecives and it's worth putting them out there.
Some men like sausage and some like taco; what's the big deal?
Right on Carolappel--What would folks say if a Straight man walked into a counslers office& said I need help to become GAY!Esp. the counsler!!
How about "Live& let LIVE" as long as they(whoever) isn't hurting anyone?
dje71~ it's a little more in depth than menu items, but I get your point.
Cuckholdon~ for a good therapist, one who truly wants to help people, it is hard to look at a person and turn them away, especially if one believes gay is somehwat of an environmental factor- then it can be changed and that's what this topic touches on here. People debate assisted suicide- it sounds ridiculous to some, but it's a reality to others. We can't really say unless we're in those shoes.
I'm one of those people who does Quite a bit of thinking& usally a little research before I post "Anything"(I can"too easily) be wrong& look dumber than I am)!
This anti gay thing seems to be be based (allmost) entirly on religion!
I came across something written by a scientist--
He said--""Religions go on belief& belief dosn't need proof--Science is based on fact& is true untill proven wrong""
cuckholden~ i realize that not everyone thinks that opening a discussion about this topic is politically correct. I am not saying nor do I claim to be an expert, but rather I bring up topics to open a discussion- to me I learn more from the people themselves than a science article (which can be very biased)- my major was in research psychology. If I really want to know about something I ask people who have either experienced something similar or know someone, etc. THis hub I wrote was to create a dialogue so others can share and others can learn.
It may seem this has a lot to do with religion in particular because the article(s) and specific topic I researched for this involve a gay community who has protested a woman counselor who uses christian principles and format in her counseling. Instead of them just dealing with the issue at hand, being she would willingly help gay men become straight if they asked her, but they took her personal beliefs (God and christianity) and used those against her as well. If you read the hub, you might understand the premise better.
The premmis is clear!
However--I do question--Just why society-seems to put enough pressure on folks who are differant that they would even THINK they would need help!!
In a Free society-It is "supposed" to be live& let live as long as your not hurting others in anyway!
BUT- there are large segments of our society that say-"Let them live in freedom as long as they live like me"
To me-this is not freedom!
cuckholden~ Even people who are not gay or otherwise in a "different" group need help so why would it be any different for someone who is considered different by some poeple in society to need help to change. Married people sometimes need help getting unmarried or decide about divorce. All people need help with changing at times and if someone goes to a counselor for that help, why is it anyone else's business. If I went to my counselor to talk about a divorce with my husband, wouldn't it be weird if a bunch of married folks were picketing my counselor.
To me, we are treating people different if we think we leave them alone at all costs and live and let live. If that were the case then the group of gays should have let the counselor live and let live.
Freedom is not when there are special groups of people who should be let alone- freedom is when everybody is let alone, but that is not the case for anyone. All groups, even the ones that aren't labeled different, get it from somebody else. Christians get it from atheists, women get it from men, upper management gives it to lower clas workers. There is always an "us" and "them" and mostly because us doesn't understand what it's like to be them.
I bring up tough topics because more info and discussion should be present, not to get gays or whoever in an uproar, but to educate and give people a chance to understand each other. What is most important, even in what you are saying, is that let's get to a point where we can diasagree about the way we all live, but be OK with that and still somehow get along. This works in some families for instance, where they can argue but still love. I'd like our society to get to this point.
Interesting hub izettl. I am a lesbian and will only speak for myself, rather than the entire gay community, but I do believe that I was born a lesbian. Somehow I knew, even as a very young child, that I felt a little different than my friends, but I didn't begin to comprehend it until I hit puberty. Even then, it was only an inkling of understanding. As I grew closer to adulthood it began to make more sense to me until I had my first relationship (and I had several boyfriends in high school...one very serious one - as serious as they can get in high school...lol) with a woman and BAMMMMM....it was like the Ford light bulb went on in my head (if you're old enough to remember those commercials :) ) Everything made sense to me. I felt comfort, rapture, joy, peace, serenity, belonging....and normal.
Now, all that being said, I do believe that people are born a certain way, however every single one of us has the choice to act on our feelings....thus...the lifestyle. Some people practice to remain celibate, while others choose to act on their feelings whichever way they lean (and some of us lean very much one way or the other....some of us like the middle of the road).
Anyway, I found your comments very thought provoking. I guess I had to just add my two cents. :)
Oh by the way...just wanted to add that I too am a Christian and a professional counselor. (but I don't try to change anyone one way or the other) :)
I appreciate your response to my hub- it's been up and down. lol. I wanted to strive to understand the topic a bit more. You stated that it took you years to understand what you were feeling and I believe it is just as important for others/society to understand it from an others' point of view. Some have stated why don't people just leave the gays alone (in criticism) of this hub too, but I think intolerance stems from not understanding. Yes, kids can be nasty and pick on other kids but they get that intolerance from their parents.
Knowing my daughter's personality, yes, she was born a certain way alright (opposite of me- lol). I honestly believe some are born that way and others the environment plays a heavier role and there's also a mix of born a certain way with the effects of environment. That doesn't mean there is a right or wrong, which some think if the environment is the effect then people can change themselves. My dad, who is transsexual, believes it was strongly from his environment and maybe a little biology to a lesser degree. Even when looking at folks who start out "normal" but then are abused, it changes their brain chemistry, it changes their personality, etc. Also I have an sutoimmune disease with no known cause or cure and doctors say it is a gene some people are born with and comes out with certain environmental factors. INteresting stuff...
I respect your comment and thank you for sharing.
I love these last few comments... I believe we are all born with gifts... like harmony... and environment plays the melody of our lives... I am two spirited... or your society calls us trans, but reality is we are two spirited... I think if my parents had shown me anything but love when they found out about me... I would be different today... because they held me in love, I grew up living both... am now many years later I still do not fit into a binary system.. I am more being both... I don't know if I could live as one or the other without being a very dull person... I have friends on both sides of the isle and I'm not talking politics...lol... I love that we are discussing the possibilities...
xethonxq~ I realize you're a counselor and wouldn't try to change anyone. I went through schooling and training to be a counselor and the way I saw things was people change if they want to and sometimes or someday you may have someone come to you who wants to deperately change- the question in this article is whether that change is ethical. I believe it is. I can not blame the counselor who wanted to help someone who wanted the help. It is similar to me for people who go to a counselor and seek to get their gender changed- we do not question them, and the counselor helps them.
izettl - I agree that helping someone make changes in their lives or understand their feelings is a role of the counselor. Helping is the right thing...forcing or imposing an ideal or belief system is not. I think we're on the same page with this. :)
xethonxq~ I think we're on the same page too. Perhaps the biggest mishap with her approach was using a Christian based method/mentality. For me, there is no right or wrong with this counselor's situation- it's just various perspectives. I can see where the gay community would be upset and I could see (as someone who is interested in the counseling profession) how they want to help...no matter what. For me, the profession drew me in to help... not to necessarily change, but I would be hard-pressed to not help someone who came to me. THanks for the discussion.
Hi Izettil, My mom's friend was a gay guy all his life, until recently he don't want to live that lifestyle anymore. He says it's because he's going to church, and it makes him realize to be conscious and not sleep Spiritually.
Also as you've mentioned above, many men have feminine qualities. But that doesn't mean their gay because they have feminine ways. Thanks
Brinafr3sh~ it's nice to get a good comment on here. I didn't write this to put down the gay community. I just wrote it to be another piece of info out there- that not everyone needs to be stereotyped as gay if they have opposite sex tendencies or desires. Thank you for sharing the story of your mom's friend.
arb Level 4 Commenter 14 months ago
O.K. I'll bite! This will certainly invite contention. I would begin by stating that I think all of us work backwards to some extent. First we decide a preference in anything, then we search the available evidence which will support our presumption. Our choices are built upon the foundation of a subconscience prejudice which in turn solicits whatever evidence or support is necessary to sustain the underlying prejudice.
The creationist or Christian begins with the presupposition that such lifestyle is wrong, that is their foundation and now they will build a house upon it. Those choosing the gay lifestyle begin with an opposite foundation and begin to build their house upon it. I have my own presupposition and build my case upon it, so where does a conversation go when we come merely to support a position built from the preservation of a pre held prejudice? I use prejudice as a term connotating - begin with your conclusion and then go to work finding the supporting evidence as opposed to - look at the evidence and draw conclusion from there. Obviously, not very conveinient if this method brings to much risk upon a pre held preference.
Whether right or wrong, biological or environmental, determination is subject to the prejudice we wish to support. I think the fuel that fans the flame is that both sides are aware of the opposing prejudices underlying the positions. It isn't the house were arguing about, it's the foundations supporting the house. Such disingenious discourse is at best, circular. It begs to much from honesty and honesty threatens the prejudice upon which we build our house. Do we come to believe our prejudice? It is where we are learning to live. So much more conveinient than moving.
In conclusion, What I think is irrelevent. It is simply the residue of prejudice and until there is conclusive evidence, I have no where else to go.