Just Because You Have Boobs, Doesn't Make You a Woman
82
The Back Story
- My Father, The Transsexual
My parents were married 18 years. Several of those years my mom was a diehard housewife to the core, even when it meant accepting my father's crossdressing. I was young enough to think it was just a game when my dad played dress-up...
Sex change changes everything
One of my first hubs, over two years ago, was about my experience with my dad when he got a sex change. I wrote from my heart. I wrote, not caring about whom I pissed off or who thought I was weird or stupid. I'm going to write like that again right now because this is all very personal, but it was this type of daring transparency that began my journey writing on hubpages. I'm tearing up some thick old roots, digging deep, and finally giving this story an update. I’m dusting the cobwebs off and even losing some psychological baggage here.
The back story is basically about 10 years ago my dad dropped a bomb on me that he got a sex change- everything done, new name, breast implants, different personality, etc. I was shocked and thought him to be careless about not even giving me a warning. I grieved my dad and tried to welcome a new woman into my life. Let’s just say our relationship has been turbulent.
Many years ago when I first laid eyes on my dad as a "woman", frankly I saw him/her as a clown. I didn't see a woman at all. That was my first mistake- I was looking for a woman. Actually, the first visits, I would search hopelessly for my long lost dad, then later visits I gave up that endeavor and accepted seeing my dad as a person, not really one gender or the other. This helped quite a bit, but I still had some baggage about what it meant to be a woman.
My dad explained only a few things about his sex change and one was that he always remembered wanting to be a woman, not feeling right with the male anatomy. But this clashed with my thoughts of who a woman was. My dad was nothing like a woman and when he/she acted like it, it was purely an act.
A reoccurring thought in my head all these years is what does it mean to be a woman? Can anyone just feel like a woman with the slash of a knife? Why do male to female transsexuals think they need to look like a woman on the outside to feel like a woman on the inside? So my dad gets a few surgeries and suddenly he's a woman? Hold the phone...shut the front door!!!! Folks, it ain't that easy! I've been a woman for quite a while and I'm telling you...it ain't that easy.
Present day
Over the years, my dad has morphed into someone I still do not recognize as a woman. The closest resemblance to a woman is probably the awkwardness in my dad's body language that screams teenage girl all over it. Flaunting and then hiding scared- the constant dance between uncertainty and excitement, but definitely someone who will never be a woman.
The biggest component of this last visit was my realization that looks do not make a woman. You could give a giraffe in the wild a male to female sex change and they still would have male tendencies. Hell, you could give a giraffe stripes but that doesn't make the other giraffes want to accept them as a tiger. The woman that many transsexuals think they are is a creation between society's superficial standards and the medical community insistence upon matching the inside with the outside.
The medical community is just as guilty as the one-sided groups of people in society- those that get accused of condemning others for not being like them. The medical community insists that if a man doesn't want to be a man, then they must be a woman and a sex change is the only way they will be happy. What happened to an option in between, perhaps both happily coexisting in the same body?
The problem when a man gets the sex change he's been waiting for, probably for a long time (my dad waited until he was 55), the man they once were and perhaps detested, is still inside them. It dosn't go away. Rather than accepting that man, they shun him and believe he disappears once the sex reassignment surgeries are complete. The identification with both male and female is still present on the inside yet on the outside it is made to be one or the other. The inconsistencies and cognitive dissonance this person experiences is what often the family members see and why it can create feelings of disbelief, judgement, selfishness, and non-acceptance among everyone involved.
I saw that my dad tried to change who he was as a person, the personality and everything to go with the outside. Yet with transgender people I thought they always grew up wanting to match their inside to their outside and somehow, once my dad has his sex change, he was striving to match the inside to his outside.
On becoming a woman...
As a girl, I identified with my dad and at that time he was a strong male figure; accomplished in career, assertive in personal dealings, intelligent. But if you've read my back story on this, you'd also know my dad was a transvestite when I was little, meaning he would spend an evening or two a week dressed up in frilly stuff around the house. My thoughts on this weren't clear as a young child, but my feelings on it certainly were. I disassociated with the frilliness of this female side in my dad and for years, well into my teens, I shied away from frilly girly items. That girliness didn't settle well with me and I never figured out why until this last visit with my dad- it just came to me.
I think I had that epiphany because since my dad is technically a "woman", I realize I am truly all woman. Now don't laugh because you all can say, 'Of course you are. Who would have doubted the obvious?' But it took me time to realize the outside doesn't make a woman- I don't have to be dressed up and frilly. For years my dad made me feel that frilly equalled woman and since I wasn't frilly I thought less about myself as a woman.
It was sometime after my teen years that I knew I don't have to try to be a woman or try to dress like one. I just am. And I am a mother too, which really has completed my personal transition into womanhood. The instinctual nurturing and selflessness I have toward my child is who my mom was, not my dad. I look back and I was confused, my mom was my role model.
What is interesting about my mom and dad- married for 18 years and divorced now for more than that- is my dad picked on my mom for her traits that were distinctively female. This could have been jealousy all those years because he desired so badly to be a woman. But now that my dad has been a "woman" for at least 10 years, he picks at those traits in me. It used to irritate me and something this last visit changed- it made me proud to be a woman. Those traits including being emotional, worrying about my child, changing my mind, soft and sappy- yep, I'm a woman.
What now?
Being around my dad is a heavy burden- one I don't choose often. I see someone who believed in a sex reassignment miracle and only seems more confused than ever. The woman in me pities the man and girl in him/her. He/she will likely be lost forever; nobody understanding him and even him/her not understanding herself. My dad still believes he has a switch between being a woman and a man and turn one or the other on and off at will.
I do believe one person can be both, a little of both always present. I do believe a man can strongly identify with women and still be a man on the outside without a sex change. I don't think our society has gotten that far yet- many are still programmed to be one or the other. And the public doesn't want to guess, they want one or the other as well.
Suggested Reading
- Dude Looks Like A Lady; Feminine Trends On Men
I've lived through enough fashion trends to be OK with men wearing make-up, such as popular rock band, KISS or more recently Adam Lambert. I'm even physically turned on by the way thick black eyeliner highlights the stony blue in Brett Michael's eyes - Misunderstanding Gender
Many transsexuals live as the opposite sex in which they were born and even get sex reassignment surgery. My dad has done all this, but now lives as I would describe non-gender specific. What does that mean? Beats me! Since I see the way people obse
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I love your hubs. Nowhere else can you go to get this much personal information coming at you like a freight train. Thanks for sharing hon. Here's your up.
To know that you are what you were created to be is as good as it gets. Izetti, you knowing that you are all woman, inside and out is terrific. Me, knowning that I am all man is as well. I can't understand the struggles that some human beings experience with this because it just seems so complicated. I have not ever been close to anyone who has struggled with this problem and can only imagine how difficult it must be. Your hub is excellent and the fact that you are willing to share such personal strife is amazing. Voted up and useful.
Then there was that guy in Florida who wanted boobs and a vagina because he thought he was a woman trapped inside a man's body, while at the same time believing himself to be a lesbian.
In the end, they still look kinda goofy, like men wearing women's clothes. They still have thick wrists and other masculine features.
Just ask Susan~ Thanks for stopping by. It's an old story for me... but lately it just seems to be coming to a closing. I've always thought no matter what happens as a kid, it's what you do with it later. For me, I turn everything into a lesson of some sort so I get something out of it.
daskittlez~ nothing is ever accomplished without taking giant leaps. Writing that original hub many years ago was my giant leap, my debut so to speak, on the internet- lol. It paid off though- I've had a chance to help others and others have helped me. Kind of cool. Didn't mean to run you over with my freight train- lol!
Husky~ It is difficult to watch someone you care about struggle with not fitting in anywhere. HUsky, we've got the convenience of knowing right where we belong.
What an interesting story. I can't relate... but I do have a friend whose father decided to become a woman. I know how difficult it was on him. He came back on leave one day and suddenly his dad was a woman. I know he was frustrated, but I am glad you have come to understand the situation. I agree... it isn't the outside that matters. A true woman knows they are one, because they have all the qualities on the inside. And that is something no surgery can change!
I can't even imagine this, especially as a child and your parents being married for 18 years while your Dad dressed in his fem clothes. This reminds me of Chandler on friends and how he coped with his Dad or did he? Fuuny that you write, although your Dad thinks he is a women on the outside he will never be one on the inside. Its not taught and can't be learned. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Will~ I agree. It still reminds me of a wolf in sheep's clothing.
barbergirl~ You've got all that right. They may feel like they've been a woman on the inside from the time they were young, but it is only thier perception of a woman, not really a woman.
marellen~ like i was telling barbergirl above- they have this perception of what a woman is, but it is only their personal illusion. Many are not happy before or after the sugery. Yes, I remember the thing about Chandler's dad- I forgot about that until now. Thanks for stopping by!
Sis,
You know how I feel about this. I don't dislike your father. I don't know him. I do however thinks he is and has been extremely selfish. I know this very well put together hub isn't about that, but I'm your friend, and I'll say what I think. This whole subject of your dad actually pisses me off. I don't care about all that tollerance crap, I think the dude ripped you off. He could have put his all important needs off until his little girl was a grown woman. You put Haley in front of everything, and you deserved the same consideration. You've always stayed tough on this, and put on a very cool act, but the fact is your dad ripped you off just as bad as my dad did to me, and it hurts like a mother. I'm a okay now, and while what I went through was something no kid should go through, I never told myself that "it wasn't that bad." That's why I'm okay. The more thought I've given it, you had it just as bad. Although you didn't have to put up with the violence and sex, betrayal, is betrayel. Okay, I'll stop, but it is what it is, and if you won't say it sucks, I'll say it for you. Sorry to take something so personal nation wide, but it was coming sooner or later. Call me when you forgive me.
jim
Thank You.... my life is better for knowing you.... I have come of age as a two spirit creative and it's you... I love you...for the release I have found in writing and enjoying reading you... there is clarity in knowing there is two.. for me... not like the clarity of a singleton but still clearer if one can see both sides,if gender is a factor in ones life. I certainly appreciate your candor and yes, It is sad to see friends that are in their 60's acting like teens... excited and then shy seems to be the consensus... "WillStar" that you think they are goofy looking shows your fear, try not to be afraid... they really care not what you think that so don't waste the moment, they are humans being and generally very bright, just have a glitch that most do not... very creative people, just naive when it comes to medicine, they are so hopeful for relief, the medical community has taken advantage of these men... men who have not been educated in living with both genders, your response shows how little is known by average people about gender and how those who are not sure actually a lot like single gender people...we are people and beings that share this good earth with you but are not like you in certain ways.. for my kind or tribe is different that yours, but not any less than yours, like you are not less than ours... I hope you understand more now and I truly hope I wasn't offensive to you....izetti, I do so appreciate your honesty,you remind me of the new woman, new world, where all man and womankind will be equal... for that is why the first of our tribe were tricked into sex changes, they know what is to come but jumped the gun... pioneers in the land, so to speak, for there comes a time when woman will rule the world, a time when she will be held in places of honor for her wisdom, lifted up because of her compassion, where all of mankind will treat her with reverence for she becomes great and worthy... my tribe are forerunners of all men to come... we see what is to come... I know how outrageous that sounds, but it really is what is happening before each of your eyes... try and pay attention... God is coming and man will no longer be over woman... we have had our chance and brought war and corruption, death and pain upon the world... there is a change coming but not the one we all think we see... sorry if that's to heavy or to out for anyone... listen closely when you are alone... the winds are whispering a change....love you izetti....
Jim~ you're my friend and you care so I truly appreciate and understand where your words are coming from. From someone who has also been hurt- boy, we've been through some rough stuff here in the open on hubpages. We're bold like that!!!
it was like anyone with a compulsion; a compulsion to drink, to gamble, etc and these people often put it ahead of their families. I do regret all the confusion about being a little girl seeing my dad dress up and having to lie to everyone around us about the secret. There was a time that I was even pissed off at my mom for putting up with it- she was just as guilty. You get mad and as you've done, I forgive because it would eat us up inside if we tried to redo things or understand everything. We've both healed Jim- still some of it comes out in our personality, but as I was reading in the Bible the other night, I saw a quote off to the side of one page and it read; "Life's adversities are God's universities"- so true! I like who I am today so something must have gone right. I still remember what you said to me about having to get rid of Haley's biting guinea pig and you said it is tough but it prepares her for future disappointments and life.
Thanks Jim
Jeanine~ if only more realized the power of two. So many hold out for this medical miracle in a surgery. They practice being female when it coudl very well be natural to accept both. I love how different people can be and it is something we all can learn from. It makes me think of infinite possibilities for humankind.
Many Male to female are told to live as a woman and forget the man before they get surgery. This in no way prepares them. None are told to try out both- I bet you!
If women are smart they will stay out of the ruling of the world business- lol. We'll rule from the sidelines.
Jesus is seen as having both male and feminine qualities showing more power and insight because of this. i understand where you are coming from and not too heavy if this info gets out into mainstream a bit more. People need to hear something over and over again before accepting. It's not radical, people should be who they are comfortable with and I believe many trans are not comfortable being one or the other- some are and some not, some belong to both, the two-spirited.
In the movie "Normal" Tom Wilkinson portrays a middle age married man who decides to become a "woman". Is it in the genes,a fluke of nature like a hermaphrodite with an ambiguous sexual character, a psychological condition that have not been fully resolve that drives a person to have a sex change.Are we living in a more open and tolerant society or is it the culture of permissiveness and promiscuity? Which ever one's conviction take him/her on this issue.I believe people like your father must have spend many tormented moments wrestling with his inner conflict.It must have also taken much courage to come out in the open.In this respect,he was more "macho" than other "males" who conceal their effeminate tendencies and living a double life. The thing I am not in agreement with BOTH your parents is in allowing a little girl to witness their marriage arrangement.They should have been more circumspect and aware of the possible emotional trauma to a child's mind.
I'm going to send you something to the jean .. address. I'ts freaking beautiful. Dirty language, but still very cool.
jim
Awesome hub! I don't know what it's like to be so close to someone who struggles with gender identity, but I do know what it's like to watch the endless struggles that people close to me have with traditional gender roles. My husband, for instance, is a very caring man who is great with kids, and now he's a house-husband while I have my own business to support the family. He was born in the late 50s, and raised by someone who was born in the 1860s while his father spent most of my husband's life in prison. These men were raised with a very "manly man" mentality, which they passed on to my husband. I know a huge part of his personal struggles have been related to the fact that he doesn't fit the society-assigned gender roles, though he is every bit a "manly man" outside of his domestic tendencies. To me, there is absolutely no problem, and I love that he fits into the household so well while I'm working, and I love how the kids glom onto him every chance they get. To him, it's a sign that there's something fundamentally wrong with him, because he's not acting "like a man should act." I'm definitely one for blaming social norms for this, just as I blamed them for my first husband believing that cleaning the house and tending the kid was exclusively my job even while we were both working the same number of hours outside of the house. Perhaps, for some people, this kind of disconnect never really results in thinking that society is wrong, and continually focuses on how "there must be something wrong with me because I'm not what society says I should be."
This whole idea of "feminine" and "masculine" traits seems to just help widen the rift between the genders, and obscure the fact that, after all, we are all just human.
how strange things happens in world, here in India we are free from such miracles....excellent topic izettl..
Hi Izetti; I'm sad that you had to deal with this, especially when you were young. This whole gender switching thing has become so acceptable in our politically correct times that people don't seem to appreciate that there may be an underlying psychological problem with a person who has such tremendous insecurities that he/she wants to become an entirely new person, thinking that it will make their self-loathing going away. It's strange to me that our PC society has put its focus on accepting the desperate decision of an unhappy person, rather than trying to look beneath and to understand why someone hates who they are so much.
A psychological evaluation is always given to people who want these treatments because almost invariably, they have suffered from depression, anxiety, low-self esteem and sometimes addiction and attempted suicide. These unhappy people try to escape from their past lives by means of physical transformation into someone new. It's much like people who get endless plastic surgery. It's all about the insecurities and self-loathing. Psychologically, happy and contented people don't look to surgery for a change in attitude.
I used to work with a guy named Brian. Married guy. As time when on, I noticed more and more eccentric behavior (Like studying withcraft and starting a sex blog) until he divorced his wife. Then he came into work wearing dresses and announced that he was a woman named Brianna. (No surgery, just a wig and female cloths.) I, personally, felt the guy needed a psychologists help and encouraged the company to get him some help. Instead, the human resources department basically threatened everyone in my department that we had to be "accepting and supportive of HER" or we'd be fired. Well, Brian eventually ended up in a mental rest home where he reverted to his male identity. If someone had taken the time to help him with his insecurities instead of being so Politically correct and "accepting" he could have been saved a nightmare experience.
Rob
The only shocking part of this amazing read is hearing you describe your father's confusion. If I understand you correctly, it doesn't sound like he gained everything he'd hoped in the surgical transformation. It sounds like he is still struggling with symbiosis. I don't judge anyone. I am a firm believer in living life, without hurting anyone in the process, the way an individual desires. You were and are directly impacted by witnessing a transformation that most of us only read about. I imagine, like every individual decision, there are variables, but I am confused as to why someone would go through the trauma of surgery if they could come to terms with the duality that are part of every person's life in varying degrees. Do you feel, izettl, that the medical community was encouraging of your father's ultimate decision? I reaize that your dad was determined that this choice was what he wanted, but I would think it had some reservations? Or, no? Please do not feel I am challenging you or anyone, I am sincerely trying to understand. I think it would be horrific to have undergone dramatic surgery to find it was not the "be all, end all" or have any second thoughts.
I feel that everyone comes from some kind of tough-to-grow-up with situation in their family, but you have defeated something that may have confused us to the end. You are strong, and your writing shows it. Your direct and straight forward manner is inspiring, and the fact that your writes are so personal make us nosey-as-heck readers (it's a human thing) want to read on continuously.
Well done, in everything.
Amy , you are right in that every human being has a duality, the difference with gender duality is that it has a heavy dose of OCD... so societies condemnation of gender variant behavior damn them to seek help from a medical community that is bent on changing our sex... the therapist haven't a clue how to deal with men who feel they are women... so instead of telling them they are unique and should pursue the dual life style, they convince us that we need not worry, because we will feel much better when we change sex... so transsexuals are two spirited people that have been convinced that they will be more if they are less... and no late transitioners are ever able to make the jump as far as I'm concerned... young trans are able because they are still young enough to not be so ingrained into the male behaviors, but it's pointless for men who have lived most of their lives as men to change and become more of the woman they have always believed they are...
Silent Reed~ I suspect under the title "Transegenders" or "transsexuals" that many fall into various categories. I believe there are some whom the environment and/or abuse largely influenced their gender thoughts. I believe some are psychologically born as a hermaphrodite is physically born to be as both, some are mentally ill. There are many various reasons and subcategories that fall into the trans.
I do think we are becoming more open as a society and its a mixed blessing- on the one hand its good because people should feel free to be who they are and on the other hand its bad because I think more people are believeing themselves to be something they are not.
Overall, it would have been nice to have some sort of explanation form my parents. My dad may still wrestle with confusing thoughts, but probably nothing compared to the torture he lived as a man.
wychic~ awesome perspective and insightful thought there about struggling with roles. I went from career woman to stay-at-home mom- I'm still adjusting 4 years later- lol. I am all for women and men taking on some of the opposite sex's roles and traits. I think it benefits our society and I wish it would bring more harmony to everyone to see the sexes weave in and out of each other's roles. But we have to remember, our generation (25-30+) is really the first to start doing this as a norm. Thanks for stopping by.
moneycop~ thanks so much for your comment- things are different in India.
sexpressions~ thanks for the lovely comment! Yes, I know how reading some of the personal stories can get to one's curiosity, kind of like passing an accident and wanting to know what happened. It is totally normal, but those of us who share this stuff also get a great benefit of writing it out and moving on- sort of like therapy.
Jeanine~ yes, I agree on all this of course you know that. I think my dad struggles so much because he changed late in life, but I know he is happier now than as a man, but could have been happier accepting both and not focusing on surgeries or the outside.
Robwrite~ there is not much dealing with the psychological component of all of this. Trans are told to live a couple years as the opposite sex and go to counseling. However, my dad bypassed all this and went to another country to have his surgeries- many do. None are told to collaborate both male and female tendencies together psychologically. They are told changing their sex is the only thing that will make them happy.
I think its a superficial way of dealing with past trauma- same as "ugly" (insecure) people who believe they need numerous plastic surgeries- just as you pointed out. What a story about the guy you worked with, but I know this happens.
Amy~ I was worried in the way that my dad did the surgeries overseas all at once because he wanted to bypass all the counseling and pre-op living as the opposite gender requirements in the U.S.
I don't think my dad "fell for" any one doctor or medical staff that determined his need for sugery. I think it is fed as a whole to trans in our society, a way of thought that comes from the medical community, that has stated over and over again that trans are better off getting surgery.
There is a big psychological component that is missing. If someone is not OK with their big nose, the medical community would agree that getting surgery would be a good option. However, the psychological aspect is hardly considered and the root of the problem is low self-esteem to begin with. I now that in typical therapy, not many are asked why they want to be another sex. People assume they are that way when they are born- I'm not too sold on that idea for all of them. I don't think the surgery option should be one-sixe-fits-all option.
getting my psych degree, I read in books- the diagnostic manual that typical treatment for trans is getting sugery or at least working toward being the opposite sex so I'm sure doctors are taught the same thing- same lie. We just accept it because its part of the training.Its been fed to the trans community to. If there was one thing that you thought would finally make you happy, you'd do it too.Only problem is it doesn't always make them happy.
Many find their way through surgery, I have not gone that route but it doesn't mean that I would not enjoy it, it means my responsibilities to myself as well as my family and career are more important to me right now than the Vera Wang wedding dress, and although the dress is a master piece, I had to come to realize long ago,so am I. The simply statement,"so am I" is a reality that most people never really get to hear or know about themselves. The gender variant child almost never hears it from his or her parents. So begins the tragic walk down the path of transition without anyone to hold them and tell them they are unique and not freaks...Still at this time in my life it's more important to me to achieve the entire life style change...and without massive work on the inside(the brain) there is no need to go and start with the outside. There in lies the reason the medical community suggest changing the outside to fit the inside... it truly is the easiest way to get away from the angst of waking each morning and being startled by the body in which one lives. For all of you as singletons in gender, this part of life doesn't exist, you are sure of who you are when you wake each day. The gender variant child wakes wondering why he or she sees someone else in the mirror and soon becomes enamored with the idea that there are two residing within the one body... add a little ocd and it's off to the races. If the child shows signs early of being more one or the other, then the parents have the opportunity to help. If not the child is viewed as reclusive or to themselves and anti social in their behavioral patterns. In my case my parents love me in a way that I was years into my marriage before I realized I had this glitch. By then I had already established living within myself as two, more like your imaginary friend that you had when you were a child, had become so ingrained in my soul that she grew up with me... I never put her in the closet but never dressed him as her either... I never hated her and he liked the company, she was shy and he was like a big brother, never embarrassing her, well a few times but he didn't do it on purpose... I know that's hard for you to relate to and I am aware that this behavior can and has created some psychosis in me... I think the biggest difference for me is everything is connected, and I have realized all of my male friends seem to have everything in neat boxes or compartments in their lives, where everything in my life is one thread, connected at every turn. My mornings are connected to my evenings, if you know what I mean. Take sex for an example, we all know men have a healthy need for it and it truly makes them who they are, any way, any time, any how, they just want it. Fun when we are all younger, funny to women when we all get older, and yes sometimes annoying to have to service him all the while wondering will he ever grow up...lol... For women sex is important but she longs for the set up to be right, romance is the reason she feels enamored to lay with him, how he makes her feel, what she thinks motivates her, fragrances, touching, holding off to savor each moment as her journey to the precipice slowly builds, she has a definite vision of where the top of the mountain is and is making her way there as he it servicing her needs. How he acts is painted into her picture, the man he is to her, allowing her to walking in gardens of release, where flowers lean into her path as she wakes by, the definite beauty of all that she is and is becoming is accessed to create the the woman she believes she is, making her moments longer she notices every detail of the whole picture. It's the main reason that if she does reach, he her lover is so driven, he doesn't not the picture but can tell she does, so the testosterone drive from him is incorporated into her vision, almost like an all consuming fire, engulfing everything in it's path. When release final comes, he can if the partners are working in tandem, feel almost super natural, the other side of the coin is if, he happens to miss in any area of the painting, her picture can disipate instantly, therefore leading us all to his infamous question... did you get off... lol... leading her into the other part of the thread, where compassion and patience lie... should I lie or hurt him... she never wants to hurt him.. because it's written into her thread and she realizes she will be hurting her self as well... He on the other hand sometimes is so dumb, he hurts her without knowing... I say all of this to let you know, if one gender variant person has both of these thoughts lines going on within them... it can be very confusing... therefore the title gender confusion was born... the medical community is and was so over whelmed by their lack of knowing what to do, that they have begun to try and put it in a corner and leave it alone... maybe would could make him feel better if he saw a woman in the mirror in the morning... which is a good idea on paper, yet because they never actually know that both are going on in the brain, they are doing the gendered child a great disservice. "Here wear this to school no matter whether you like it or not, I'm the mommy" remember your mom saying that, well think if the doctor gave you a vagina and said hey you will wear this and feel better and you do feel better until you realize, you want to go outside and play football with the guys and these boobies are bouncing every where, you haven't grow up with them so they are a new addition, absolutely beautiful in the way they look in the dress, absolutely a pain when running... and one needs to be tackled only once, having ones breast bruised to convince you to never play that game again... that may be to simple of an example, but I have decided if a doctor makes me less to try and help me become more, I think I'll pass for to not play the game is not so hard, because of this little skirt I can wear and may those guys look... oo la la... what is missing and unacceptable is the game of life being with the guys in the game and instead of being the game and waiting for them to come by and want you... understand... it still is a choice for each of us as we go down this path called life... I think my sisters and brothers in the TS community are at the forefront of change and take the abuse for it... myself I am happy to be both, I love the body I live in, I love how he treats me, how he meets me, and protects me from a world that is so afraid of me... so to the question finally, do boobs make you a woman, definitely not, but there are a badge of honor that each of you genetic girls wear, and sometimes I do envy how beautiful there are and would absoliutely love having them... but I could not live with the shame I would be imposing upon my love and my protector that has lent me his body all these years... he is truly a good guy, never making me stay in the closet, never asking me to leave, never wondering why I was here and he baths enough...lol... so I am not so repulsed by his sweaty weird smell when he works outside or works out to keep healthy... he is kind and it was his idea to let you look inside and see how it really is for us as a two spirited individual... I love him and he loves me... I we know how hard that may be for you to see... hope your life is good, I found a way and believe this is a way for many in my tribe that have been convinced that surgery is the only way... but he think different than I do, "for sometimes late at night or early mornings he hold me close whispering I am the only one on earth like me" sweet guy huh... yes he is... I to believe there is not enough time spent on the mental side of transition...
Please forgive the typos...
J~ I read this...intrigued...nodding my head because I know I will never understand completely, but the way you can explain things is with such clarity so how can I not feel like I've just took a trip into your world and see it through your eyes. When you write, I can see things through your eyes so clearly. The compassion you have as a man, the freedom and creativity you grew up as a child with, has allowed you to become a better version of what might have been had you taken any roads that many trans have. Many do not find any peace and just the hope of peace through surgery gets them by.
Much of the unhappiness has to do with society not seeing them as they finally see themselves as a new person after surgery. I see that in my dad. I also see some tinges of mental illness in my dad so I know that there should have been more done from the inside out...some counseling...some reflection on his part, etc. To be honest, I wouldn't wish boobs on anybody- lol. In high school when they started coming in, I hated them because it interfered with my sports, and even now sometimes I wish I could take them on and off at will, just for comfort. How nice it would be to simply take of my shirt when it's hot outside!! But I do understand your point about them being a badge. I understand when women I've known never felt right because theirs were not bigger. Again, it's something to be dealt with on the inside.
My confusion with my dad is he is so strongly male 90% of the time that it is hard to understand where the hell the woman came from! He wants me to continue to call him dad and for my daughter to call him grandpa so I never know when I should apply the female treatment and when the male toward him.
Dear Jeanine,
You are obviously such a thoughtful, intelligent human being that, although what you struggle with is rightfully of great importance to you, it is part what contributes to your brilliance. Thank you for so generously, beautifully sharing your vantage point on this topic. I feel privileged to have been privy to your honesty. You are a beautiful person with a beautiful brain.
Amy~ very well put. Jeanine is wonderful for sharing.It gives us a unique and well-written vantage point.
And, thank you, izettl, for your brilliant piece from your very personal experience. It is rare to be able to have such a privileged seat.
I agree with Amy, it's you Izetti, I would have never thought about exploring and most profoundly in my own life, would have never thought about writing about two spirited people... I know my tribe is a very old tribe and transsexual are a new fringe group that has appeared in the last 60 or 70 years, it is interesting to me what they have done to their bodies but also no more interesting than those who tattoo the entire body or pierce... I know that sounds harsh but we are who we are, whole and incomplete....
Amy you are very kind to encourage me, thank you Laura for being you and sharing your life with us....
Amy~ there were so many years when sharing this stuff would have made me feel shameul, as if I'd done something wrong. It sounds silly now and I hope it helps people open up if they need to.
Thank you Amy and Jeanine!!
Izetti, thanks so much for your kindness to me, during this past year, I have learned more about what I really believe and through sharing with you have realized how different my path to comfort has been achieved concerning my gendering...lol.. nice word huh... you have knowingly treated me with so much kindness and respect that I have been able to be free in my discussion of how two spirited people actually feel... thanks, such a mature woman in a young womans body... hope you are well...
unfortunately when you say, my dad is 90% male most of the time... where in the hell did this woman come from... the sad part is that's all that's left of her... and probably why he made the decision to transition in the end... he knew she was sick and had loved her for so long... the reason she was sick was him... and he is trying to revive her, when she was young and loved him so... it is so sad, that I weep even as I write this note to you... he never knew pressing her down so far would damage her, but it did and it does, and that's where the mental illness comes from also... to live with two and never express it warps the both of them, she gives up finally and he doesn't know how to get her excited about living anymore...I am blessed in that I have never tried to put her down, and she has always loved me and I have loved her so... many weep over over children who are two spirited that do not make it through... most do not because they are afraid and have pushed themselves down for all of their lives... the 10 percent you see is all that is left of her... but if he can hold up through these next few years maybe she'll make it... the reason you often see me as coming from a place of strength is she is always with me and I need her, she is a massive part of my life, just as all other two spirited people... the problem with transitioning late is by the latter years, both personalities of the two spirit is twisted and warped... now that doesn't mean we can't be happy as women or as men, it means exactly what I said... certain parts of the brain if left in the shame mode becomes twisted.... and the spirit begins to die... if he is a true two spirit, he is male, with a female side that is alive in him... not a fantasy but truly two spirits living in one body... you treat him always as the man except when shopping, cooking, cleaning, and tending to the children, so in your case your treat him as a woman when he is helping you with your child or children...
Izettle, I have no experience of this in real life, but I am very interested in gender roles and I often think about how difficult we human makes our life. Sometimes we are so busy to be right as a gender that we forget that what we are first, are humans! All these roles and all these "musts" and how we are supposed to look and behave can be unbridgeable for many people. Much of how we are supposed to be in order to be socially accepted in our gender roles are invented by humans but that doesn't mean that it is human!
This hub is a masterpiece Izettl and it has started so many interesting comments. Thanks for having the courage to write this in the way you did, personal and honest!
Tina
J~ i would never understan even a tiny speck of my dad if it weren't for you. You have served a life enriching purpose for me as well. Thank you for explaining about my dad and my misunderstanding of the 90% male comment I had written. It shows you have given this much thought, not just for your situation, but mine as well and I thank you for that. You somehow put it into a perspective or certain analogies (like "her" being sick) that I can relate to. Your last few lines there are great advice- I never thought of it that way. That answers some of my question about when to treat her as male and when to as female.
Tina~ you are so right that we are humans first. I had to learn this lesson through my dad and really my little girl helped me to see it. She is so young that she only sees my dad as a person with a personality; another human. It's always helped me to view my dad this way too.
But it gets tricky because we can say the human thing to do is say gender shouldn't matter so much but it is huge to a transgender or transsexual. It is distinct for them and many (think) they want dearly to be only one.
Hi Izetti, it is a different perspective is all, before there was SRS, my tribe signaled who we were by what we wore, kinda like transvestites do today, the difference being we did and do it in public, so if you look at two spirited people or look at their pics, you see men dressed as women or as both, more both in most cases... the reason you have, so much pain in our community is, we are not women, because we have the operations at our disposal we have crossed some lines that are beneficial, but also detrimental to us as a tribe... most realize after the fact that we are the same, just have replaced some parts that gave us both perspectives... we are men who have an affinity with women... we know quite a lot but are most prominent when we are treated as men and have a real perspective on how women actually feel... the commentary is much more important to the conversation than us trying to teach the concept... understand... that's why I comment here, it is much more important to clarify how you feel than it is for me to try and convince you that I have certain gifts that will allow me to understand.... where we have gone off the road in the trans community is we are drunk with the power to change into women... think about it, if you knew you were a man,or knew you had insight into being a man, and thought it would move you further into being a man with an operation... more than likely you would take that pill and swallow it...lol... granted most of our moves in the last 70 years have been based on ignorance to who we really are... the perfect place for us is where we were in history... men who had respect from the community as a man, but also were respected for what they knew about women... as soon as we take the pill or the operation in this case, we put ourselves at a disadvantage...for we are no longer men and can't be women, fully and wholly... I think we talked about there would be far less full transitions if we as transsexuals had to raise the babies and rear the children... I think Tina touched on the fact that all of us, both genders are trying to be each other... and that's fun to a point... in my tribe because we know a little something about woman... we can convince you we are a woman and need for you to help us, get the operation... understand... it is a vicious circle... what we have to do before all of this comes back to a sane place is, stop being so selfish in wanting to feel how we feel in the womans body.. we already know we will never have the spirit of a woman... we are ignorant and dumb asses...our dads never knew we were stronger, they only saw that we were not meant for toil... well to us that's not a bad thing... yet our own guilt straps us to toil, when we trade in our male bodies for a female shell... I'll ask you... you girls all wear what you call shells, which is a very loose fitting garment that only touches the body at the shoulders and in this article.. across the boobs... the female body touches us as two spirits about the same as those garments touch you... just in a few places really, so by the time we realize that about ourselves, it's to late to tell anyone that we are really someone else and have been all along... tragic in some ways... necessary for my tribe to find its self again... so if I think to long about the last statement I weep openly... for we were great and will be great once more in secrets we hold of these lives we live...
Wow - what an enlightening hub and dialogue in comments. Thank you all for the openness. Izetti and Jeanine I thank you both. I have always loved personal growth and trying to understand people... this hub and the comments have added to my insights.
We all have both male and female hormones... the two become one in the flesh is more than just a biblical statement.
Thanks to all who shared themselves so open...
Right. Because the essence of a woman is passing through the process of giving birth.
J~ thanks so much for adding this perspective...priceless.
Neil~ Glad you got to read this. It's an interesting world out there and I love to explore it all, especially this topic close to my heart. People are fascinating and very misunderstood.
SoleiMarie~ thank you for your comment...that seems very likely about giving birth.
Very inspiring hub. I hope many women in the world read this hub. As a man, I really appreciate your thought about "boobs". Well done, my friend. Cheers....
Prasetio
THanks Prasetio- always nice to see you and thank you for reading.
A great personal and yet thought-provoking hub and I enjoyed this. :)
Thanks so much Cheeky Girl
That's a really personal hub, izettl. Thought-provoking. Glad that you write it again, and share it with us.
As a matter of fact, I was just thinking about this subject lately. I have seen transsexual men from China, Malay, Thai, American, British etc, but I have not met or read one from India. What could be the reason ?
We all live to find our own happiness and find our happiness in such different ways. If you're dad's happy, good for her. If this is a source of unhappiness for you, take it from your life. What else is there to do?
Thanks Ingenira. I have no idea why none from India. Yes, I've noticed that too. Very interesting and now I might have to check into that.
Tauntastic~ Not sure if my dad is happy now, hopefully more content. I am happy, but something about my dad and my relationship is not content and it's coming from both of us I'm sure. I have come to terms with things from my past, but would love a better, easier relationship with my dad now.
Ingenira in India, he is much more relaxed and not so binary a system as the rest of the world... two spirited people were and are a separate tribe... transsexuals are only here the last three quarters of a century... we have been here for ages... milliniums to be exact... In india there are 1 million enuchs there at least...
Did not know that...thanks Jeanine.
in reality eunuchs are the tribe we belong to... two spirited is the umbrella and trans are the new model of eunuchs with the bodies of women...there will always be a small faction... when it gets fun its we all realize we really are men... with the power of a womans body... now that will be interesting to say the least... right now all our therapist are on board with asking, telling or making us believe we need to act like women when we get the body to acclimate into society...lol... soon there will be a new trans, she s already here... in the youth... that she knows shes a boy but her kink is to be herself as a woman...those children are the real future...
J~ As society becomes more open, there will be many kids getting sex changes and I am concerned about that. I guess if you are two-spirited you know from an early age, however, I'm not on board with having sex changes or taking hormones that early in life.
I agree, early is a nightmare... but it's also the only way that part of my tribe will survive... so transition early, means stealth in a different way... watch the movie "Salt" and that's what is happening in my community.... trans are training the young... so one day, know one will know, except us... and at that time, it will become dangerous... for you will have young mens thoughts inside of a beautiful womans body... that's a lot of power... you see it in she males today... and drag queen... men thinking like men... with womens bodies... scary times ahead...
J~ If a parent recognizes this behavior in a child, the first place they take them to is the doctor, who we all know has the opinion of changing genitals to be one or the other. With this mainstream info out there the kids will never get a chance to see their choices- for them it feels like they have no choice other than change to the oppostie sex. That's why we need our book out there :))
There are other choices... I agree... there is enough knowledge to put something together... it does take a unique man or woman to love the two spirited person though... we are not easy, but actually a good bunch when you get to know us...
Amen!!
You have achieved what you set out to achieve: thought provoking, cut-to-the-chase article!
You career has/does serve you well! Most of us seek careers that as you know, fulfills a need... You have succeeded. Sexuality, or lack of it is an infinite shade of grey. As you know, there is the stereotypes and then the biology of being polorized into a "sex camp."
There seems to be a variety of chemicals, DNA componenets that determnine our shades of sex.
Another stimulating article. Keep shaking our tree of certainity. There is nothing "certain," for this I am certain!
Thanks dallas! Great words about certainty!
Dallas... you are so right about the shades of sexuality... so many flavors... so many places to go... and it would only be right to see all the colors of the rainbow... if one believes in evolution, then it's a natural thing... if one believes in creationism then it would be, look how unique God has made us all... either way we should all be proud that we are different... it shows we are alive.... thanks for your words izetti
your welcome Jeanine...any time.
First English is not my native language , so i am sorry if i use inaccurate expressions or something, i am transsexual woman myself , post operative at the age of 34 , started transition at the age of 29(naver married , nevaer had kids). The fact that you hate your father(or at least that what i feel from freading your 2 articles) or at least hate what you did , makes you do not even try to feel what it is like , it is not simply about "body modification" . i was lucky my self because i born in the late 70s ,but your father was not , when he was young , nothingo was available to help trans people , so it is not "her" fault to do that at the age of 55 , you said that you studied psychology , i will talk about myself , i do not know how i act , i do not attempt to act in a girly way or something , but i walk in the street ,go to public places , have friends , and no body recognize that i am transsexual , i am just lucky because of my genetics , so it is not your "father" dault too , if she is taller than average or has wide shoulders or anything. anyway i do not know what to say exactly , i do not think you will consider the whole issue , since you take it as personal insultation .
And hust for records , the universal image about women are more tolerante and more comprehensive when talking about different sexual orientation or gender identity is not true , the only difference that women are not physically agressive , but in many cases where transsexual women were murdered , women were there as instigators .
Mary~ I understand your thoughts on this and I can put myself into the place of a transsexual...to a certain point. My dad did this and it's not that I'm upset about, it's the way it was done. Not talking to me about it, acting like he was superior to me to hide his insecurities. I have questions and he won't answer or even talk to me about it. no matter what the subject is, every child will have some sadness about their parent doing something major and not wanting to talk to their child. He has input about everything in my life and everything I do so why can't I have my own input on his?
It is strange to me to think I would not consider this issue, of course I have. Perhaps my blunt honesty in this article has led you to believe I hate my dad or transsexuals, but that's not the case. I only wanted my dad to include me in his life and many children of transsexuals feel this way (you're lucky you did not have kids). Suddenly our dads are living a new life, new friends and we're not part of it anymore. Suddenly there is a new person and new rules to the relationship.
For instance, my dad is upset and disappointed that I am having a baby boy because he sees his life as a boy was torment.
Because my dad did not want to tell family about his transition, he did not walk me down the isle for my wedding, and has never wanted to meet my husband. So please tell me why this man was involved in my life, met my boyfriends, but after trasition into woman, is not involved.
You mentioned in another hub that you strugled with the term "Gender Identity disorder" , my point is : you have issues with your father and of course you have the right to write about it and call your father a clown , you are the country of the freedom of speach where every one have the right to insult every one , it is ok too if you have doubts about transsexuality and that your are not conveinced of the whole idea. But you are trying to conveince others that you are writihng from a psychological or scientific point of view , but i am afraid you are not , you are not fair , so it is your personal point of view and of course you have the right to express your personal feelings . I did not marry and never had kids because i knew from the begining what i suppose to do , that was a thing i decided from the begining. i came from oriental country where we have another culture , but sometimes i feel you american people "love" to make your life difficult , sometimes i do not understand , your father is no longer your father now and she knows that , she see and know how people look at her , she hear people comments about her , and she can not do anything to improve her situation, may be she feel shame to meet your husband , may be she knows that meeting your husband will not be a nice situation for you too , before she was in a complete male body and i think she tried her best to be your father , but in some point she said ok , my daughter grow up now i can go for my life , you do not like that but it is the fact (that what i think).
At the end , i Understand your feelings , i see your point about the way how your father did the transition and how she refused to share her feelings and her insecurities with you .
Hello folks...All of the feelings written in these two articles, I can identify with completely. I am a psychotherapist who specializes in sex offender treatment, and the mother of a son who informed me in an email he was transgender, and was seeking reassignment surgery. For three days I was in denial, and then reality hit. This happened in April 2011. Since then nothing in my life is the same. It feels as though my son is committing suicide, and some new person will be in his place. Someone, I don't know, and am not familiar with. Since then I have grieved, suffered from depression, been unable to sleep, and am now on antidepressants. He reports wanting to be a lesbian, when this is over. He has a beautiful wife, and 3 year old daughter. He is 31 years old, and has never given any, and I mean any, indication he was trapped in the wrong body. I was at his house 2 weeks ago and when I left he was still a man, lying on the sofa, farting and scratching his butt, watching football and NASCAR. How is this a woman in a man's body. He has never tried to put on makeup, has never been clean, is not nurturing to his daughter (she hates him, even at 3), has never attempted suicide, or done any of the other things usually associated with those who are reportedly trapped. I have met his therapist, who is gay, how can she be objective in her field, I'll never know, and he has lied to her about his entire past. He told her he always wanted to cook and sew, and I denied him. This is a big lie. I provided paperwork from numerous childhood therapists that indicated he was tested and found to be high functioning Aspergers, but it has been ignored and pushed aside. Because, as a therapist who specializes in deviant sexual behaviors, I questioned the veracity of his choice, he has been hostile towards me. His hostility and lack of concern for my feelings have caused him to write me the most evil, and mean, emails I have ever seen. He calls me names, and attacks me. He has told my daughter-in-law not to speak to me, or let me see my grand-daughter. I thank God, she felt guilty enough to call and attempt to make things work, hence my visit 2 weeks ago, whereby I did not say a word, so I could see my grand-daughter. I am held hostage, and my tongue slashed, so I can speak, lest I lose my grand-daughter too. It is curious to me that the transsexual can have a voice, but no one else can, or reportedly they will commit suicide. His therapist held up her hand and told me to not try to challenge him. I was furious because this is my son, who I raised, and love. Who is she to tell me I can not at least question the veracity of this choice. I am a therapist who deals with children who have sexual problems who act out against others. I have never told a parent they should not question, I respect their love for their child. Just as Amy said in her article, generally you promote acceptance of the self. I agree that a surgical change does not make a woman. And I find it an insult when men transgender or not, portray this exaggerated interpretation of who and what they think a woman is. It reminds me of the old Amos and Andy days when white people attempted to portray their interpretation of blacks, it's just insulting. It is my opinion that the transgender population is abusive to those who do not accept what they are attempting to shove down other people's throats. I am resentful that I have no voice, and am taking this opportunity to express myself openly. Thanks for this opportunity Amy, and thanks for your article, that has assured me, I am not the one that's crazy here.
"getting my psych degree, I read in books- the diagnostic manual that typical treatment for trans is getting sugery or at least working toward being the opposite sex so I'm sure doctors are taught the same thing- same lie. We just accept it because its part of the training.Its been fed to the trans community to. If there was one thing that you thought would finally make you happy, you'd do it too.Only problem is it doesn't always make them happy."
"I was at his house 2 weeks ago and when I left he was still a man, lying on the sofa, farting and scratching his butt, watching football and NASCAR. How is this a woman in a man's body. He has never tried to put on makeup, has never been clean"
" I do however thinks he is and has been extremely selfish."
"I have met his therapist, who is gay, how can she be objective in her field, I'll never know"
Of course your God , does not make mistakes , he creat women , he creat men and he creat men with some feminine traits and they suppose to be men , Fortunatley my God wants to make mistakes , that is something you people of metallic civilization do not understand .
Mary~ you are right about a lot of what you say. But we all question family or are concerned with big choices. I know many people who would not understand why their father quit a great job. And if he had his reasons, he did not share with the family why he did it. THis is not my circumstance but it is similar in that any major changes that a family member makes and is not the same person nor wants to talk about it, it causes concern for the family that loves that person.
If you read my other hub, my dad knew who he was before he was married but tried to live a normal life and tried to convince me that dressing up as a woman was what all dads did- it was a lie. My mom and I both were lied to. He married my mom on the pretense that he was a man, etc.
I opened up about this because if you read many comments on my hubs, other people have struggled with it too. I do feel poorly about my dad's struggle to fit back into society, but no matter what you think about this topic, there are two sides. I will never see your side, jsut as you have not seen my side. You constantly comment about what I've done wrong in expressing myself on these hubs.
Rosie~ these are really genuine feelings so raw and I can totally identify with them back when my father changed. My dad is considered a "genius" and many transsexuals are extrememly intelligent- not sure what this has to do with it but I see your point about your son's Asperger's. My dad also has no feeling between us and has written me bad emails too, like I wasn't even his daughter and some other person was saying those things.
" It is curious to me that the transsexual can have a voice, but no one else can, or reportedly they will commit suicide. " Yes, I totally agree. And yes I have a problem with the exaggerated version of being a woman. If you really feel a woman you don't need the dress-up stuff. You are right to doubt because if everybody accepted things then we would make no further advances in this world. I do not accept the traditional route of sex reassignment surgery for people who feel in the wonrg body. I think we don't accept it because we have a background in psychology and we understand the complexities in people. THank you for your comment.
Mary (your last comment)~ these are feelings and doubts expressed. Nothing wrong and only your God or my God can judge, not any of us. We are not judging by expressing our feelings. We have deep concern about a family member we love (and lost).
izettl,
Hmmmm, I have thought way too long on how to respond, and nothing at all profound comes to this brain of mine.
I could not imagine having to experience what you have with your dad. My mind cannot comprehind HOW anyone can want to do such a thing.....I know that there are many folks who deal with this everyday...I have learned over the course of years, NOT to judge others, to what goes on in their minds or what possess' them to think the way the do....as long as they are not hurting anyone, which in this case, I find it hard to believe they can't hurt someone that loves them...they are the one's who have to live their own life and deal with all consequences. good or bad.
A very interesting hub....the word Boob always seems to grab my attention...lol
Izetti- i am trying to understand , read your 3 hubs and the comment of MRs.rosie several times . i am sorry i can not see any "love" in your writings , i see anger,hate and offensive language .My last comment is : We transsexual people(there are trans men by the way, did not see any man here "express" their feeling about how they lost their mother,daughter of a wife) we suffer enough , high rate of suicied ( it is fact ,not reporting ) , high rate of unemployment, discrimination every where in jobs, housing and governmental places ,and we do not enjoy that, we do not love being transsexual, if i had a choice i chooce to exist from the begining.
the only hope we have is the medical system , Harry Binjamin and the WPATH , so please please do not try to destroy it , please if you can not understand would you please leave us alone ?
Rosie... I am so sorry you are going through it right now...if you have read Izetti s hubs about this , then you know some of my thoughts... I am what the world calls trans... but have researched for years and years for my true tribe... which is.. two spirits... trans today all fall under this umbrella... just as eunuchs in the bible, trans are the new version... the medical community has done us a great disservice... read all you can on the true tribe and then help him see it is a gift that he has... the med community want us all to fit into the binary system... we do not... we are men who know certain perspectives that are female... that's why he looks like he is a poor copy... his gift is not being a woman... his gift is understanding both men and women... we were the therapist, and advisers for thousands of years... before Christianity came on the scene, we were known as the keepers of the secrets of God... read without delay... then we can talk... Izettl has given us this forum for knowledge... use it...he is more if he can stay two... he is less if he choose one or the other... the med community wants me to be more by them making me less... I am not either I am both... a man amongst men... a woman amongst women... and yes you have every right to protect your child... most parents are unaware of us as a tribe so they do what the doctor says... why do we have to reassign... is the real question... I think it's because of the power we possess as ourselves... scary to the rest who are only one...
Mary, I am transsexual and I believe the medical community is to blame... most are men who haven't a clue what it's like to live like this, so they seemed to have come to the conclusion that if I am not a man, I must be a woman... what a crock that is... throughout history, cultures all of the world have accepted us as we are... it has only been in the last seventy years that transsexuals have even been around... two spirited people have been here since creation... now if you want to believe that you are a woman... that's fine, but I have studied and lived this life for well over a half century and have found a lot of the trans group bitter and unhappy... I have a family and is the main reason I didn't rush out and change my hardware... now do I wished I could... yes everyday there are times I wished I was all woman or all man but it is not who we are as a tribe.... we were placed here to help the rest of you understand each other... if you look into our lives you'll see the tribes where we were allowed to live as two spirits, there is no word for divorce, we are quite good at what we do... I am not angry with you or any of the trans community... I cannot say the same for the community... they are generally mad with anyone who does not accept the dogma of the binary system... most parents have never heard of two spirits so when they see a child like me, who is very comfortable dressing in either or they run to the therapist, who is also uneducated in matters of my tribe, so they have come up with a solution to a problem that did not exist... I was very lucky in that my parents did not tell me I could not look one way or the other... when I wanted to be a boy and out run the rest I was allowed... if I felt like a girl and dressed the part, I was not punished but simply told I was unique and also very beautiful... as I grew older everyone new I was unique... I never had boys beat me up... nor girls turn me away... I am unique within my own mind so there is no guilt on my part... I have a family who all know I am different... I chose a profession..entertainment so I can dress however I want... I do not hide in your society nor do I profess you should accept my ways... I am who I am and that would be me...lol...is sexual matters I am in love with a woman but easily could and have been in love with a few men in my life.. both are very satisfying to love and both sex have wonderful qualities to fall in love with... your world calls that bisexual and I'm sure when your people mature, they will begin to see bispiritual is not so outrageous, biemotional will not be far behind... if you look in your dictionary neither of those words exist, which if you look in most ancient cultures all three exist... two spirited people have and will be here when you no longer have need for the operation... trans are not wrong just misguided and uneducated... to us transexuals are simply the new eunuchs. You have doctors who will make you look like a woman and hey I think you are beautiful...I understand if you were never able to practice in the light of day how that would twist your perception... how the angst of living without freedom would make one rush to the other side as soon as one could... there are other reasons also why trans change their bodies... they see the coming age of woman taking her rightful place as leaders of the world... so in one respect they want to be first in line... but that is another discussion altogether... hope you are exploring the possibilities that you were made perfect just the way you are...peace and love to you and your families...
interesting...
CMeritt~ yikes, bet you didn't expect this type of hub when you clicked on the enticing title with the word "boob" in it. lol. These situations are ill-handled. Nobody, even counselors, are prepared in any way to help these people and therefore lies are told, mistrust develops, shame, etc and it tears a family up- nobody is at fault, but everyone is effected. THanks for reading.
shivnandan~ thanks for stopping by.
Mary~ you are actually proving my point. If these people suffer then why are they pushing their family away? This is happening to "Rosie" above too- her son is pushing her away, taking her grandchild away. When my dad did this he pushed his entire family away. I also believe that many who go through this have underlying mental issues or illness, some have had a past that led them to this, some have not. Many are extrememly intelligent. I'm just saying that a one size fits all approach that is out there by counselors and medical community is wrong. Because they are afraid the person will commit suicide. Someone who would commit suicide needs more help than some surgeries and a sex change.
My dad has told me before that he would not have chose this for himself so I know this is something that pains the person to go through, but there are two sides and you're not acknowledging the hurt the other side goes through too. I am very open about this make no mistake. Nothing get sugar-coated by me and you may find that approach offensive, but it comes from the heart. If I didn't care about my dad, it wouldn't have hurt me. For instance, I am pregnant epxecting a boy and my dad has stated that if I decide to have another baby to abort it if I find out it is a boy. perhaps i am harsh, but look who my dad is. To me, it looks as if my dad is pretending to be a woman- that's what this hub says. He has no idea what it means to be a woman- he sees being a woman as from the outside and not the inside. This is tragic and why not many trans convince me they are a woman because they LOOK like one. my dad dresses gender neutral now and still does everything like a man so I wonder why was it just some body parts that needed to be changed.
Jeanine~ "he is more if he can stay two... he is less if he choose one or the other" this is brilliant. I have gotten to know you and I know for a fact that you embrace both sexes very well and it truly seems to be a gift and an advantage in life. You have also considered your family as a high priority.
A little off the subject, but when i became a mom, my identity was within my position at work- I was career woman. I had to make a choice because my daughter was sick so often as a baby so I gave up my identity for a new one that is seen as lesser (yes, people look down on you when you say you're a stay-at-home-mom). Family also has to be a priority and you have found that balance- it wasn't easy I know, but it started with your parents.
I think the sex reassignment and choosing one or the other is to appease society, in hopes they will finally fit into one category, but afterwards they realize they still don't. Society wants them one or the other so it fits our standards.
Jeanine~ I really like the bi-spiritual and bi-emotional words you used. Very interesting and why they don't exist.
Yes people look down upon you if you are a stay at home mom...lol... hey think if you are a stay at home transsexual... not only do they look down on you for wanting to be a woman, but look down on you because you are even socially lower than the stay at home mom... a fake to the whole world... I don't know how this idea caught on really... we were known as friends and advisers to the kings... now we are the freaks on the springer show... wake up TS, you have been sold a bill of goods...
"If these people suffer then why are they pushing their family away?"
I wonder why ?
Personaly if i had a daughter or mother wants to take control on my mind telling me what i supposed to do , seeing me as mentally ill , wants to keep me under her female supervision telling me that i can not be a woman because i am not clean(you were talking about the binary system , men are not clean, women are clean), ah i am sorry i am not a woman , i meant telling me that i can not have sex reassignment surgery,oh sorry there is nor reassignment, telling me no to destroy my body , I will make sure to stay hundred thousand kilometer away of her .We do not suicicde because of transsexuality , we suicide because of bad treatment .we suicide because of people , and if my family is not supportive so they are people too ,they are no longer my family , i am not talking about (daughters) i am talking about the rest of my family which in the most of the cases always women (aunts, sisters ,etc.....) . in your case and in Rosie case your father and her son did a fetal mistake in my culture , they never suppose to marry or to have kids . but if i had no wife and no kids i think it is my decision after the age of 30 to take control of my mind .instead of giving my mind to another woman to take control of it , and if i suicide she would say , ah he killed "himself" ok , anyway "he" was mentally ill, at least i have my grandduaghter .
by the way transsexuals exists since long time , only the vaginoplasty is the new thing , in India traditional transgender women(Hijra) for centuries they used to remove completly their genetalia ,a procedure me and many other transsexuals will go for it if there was not a vaginoplasty . it is not about body modification , the goal is not the surgery itself , it is about our self images , we want to look in the mirror and see ourselves , that is why the process of transition is long and it does not work for every one .but we keep trying ,in my case i do not have kids , my parents passed away, i immigrate to another country after the transition, keep calling my sister and we still talking as we always did when we were kids , she does not consider me as another person , it is still me .
I know that i said that the last comment will be the last , but i am mentally ill anyway .no rules with mentally ill people .
Oh Mary, I hope you did not think I am against what you are doing... I'm very proud of you and understand completely that you want a better self imagine.... and if you see yourself as a woman, certainly you should do that... this is just another discussion, other than the normal, TS line of oh I'm a woman trapped in a man's body... I want you to know there are others of us that are just as you are but live in a different part of the experience... I don't feel any less a woman or any more a man than you do... I'm just saying there are great advantages to staying as two, instead of moving to one.... although the one you move to whether that be male ofr female is a wonderful place I'm sure... what I am trying to get to you to see is our community of trans is wider than most of you girls are willing to accept... if I accept you as being trans, can you except that I am just as valid as you girls, with me being two spirited... I guess what I'm trying to say is.... transsexuals seem to be very prejudiced and conservative in their acceptance of what could possibly be.... I am living proof that we exist... I feel just as strongly about my two precious genders as you feel about wanting to be one and throw the other one away... sorry to be so blunt but to me that's what you are doing... there is greatness in being two... and I do hope you will be honest with yourself and take a look at how unique you really are... for me... I could never allow a doctor or anyone else to tell me I needed to be like anyone else on earth... I know I am the gift... I am two... I am in love with you... and I am in love with him.... what most Trans do not understand is they are the most unique humans on earth... then they do the strangest thing on earth... they decide to give up one of themselves... very Christ like in some ways, but very macabre in other ways... for to give up his love he has for me, would be an impossibility for me... he kept me alive by letting me live in him... so I can't keep off the one friend I have known all my life...I am in love with him... I created him just as each of you did, to survive, but then he was created so perfectly,for me that is, that I fell in love with him...and he fell in love with me... he's the one who did not make me stay in the closet, he's the one who was smooth enough for us to never get beat up, he's the one that the girls loved and let me be one with them... I love him although he is my creation, like I said just like every other transsexual in the world...I created an alter ego... the difference is I don't hate him and want to get rid of him... so what happened to me is my question... am I a freak and something went wrong with the transsexual process as we have been taught by therapist and doctors or... am I what transsexuals my become... or what transsexuals are really supposed to be... I know I feel most all of the same things each of you tel me you feel, but I am not willing to hurt my family.... most trans I know say they are going to do it no matter what... how is that not the most selfish thing one might ever do... do you know any woman who would ever hurt her child... I don't know one, not one who would hurt or let any man hurt her child... so I decided I wouldn't let even the man I lived within hurt my children... so no matter how much he wants to be a woman... I'm not going to let him hurt my children... can you follow that... if not read the last few lines again... "the lioness in me will kill any man that tries to hurt my children, including even the man's body I live in... gender is that many layers, so read it, then read it again.... here's my question... what if there are thousands of us who are just like you but are nothing like you, if that were true, then we would have to admit that trans is a much wider road than we have been led to believe by this medical community... that's all I'm saying... I think you have every right to be exactly who you are... but what If this is exactly what I want to be... therefore that's why I say Trans have only been here a short time... and I'm very aware of our sisters in India, and love and respect each of them...open your eyes and see we are here for youas well to tell you that you don't have to do what the medical community and doctors tell you... enjoy your gift for a while before you decide it is not complete... does that make sense to you... I certainly hope so... I am so glad to know you and I hope I haven't offended you in anyway...
Every trans has the right to transition, but I read above where you said...."We do not commit suicide because of transsexuality , we commit suicide because of bad treatment and because of people, so if my family is not supportive they are no longer my family".... they BS because they will always be your family, you are their blood and they are yours, so you must not turn our family away even if they turn you away.... and people usually treat me the way I treat them, so if they are treating you harshly, take a real look and see if your transition treated them harshly... understand... I don't think it's the transsexuals fault but some of the things I see my sisters do are frankly stupid...I have one sister who got a boob job before she had finished electrolysis, then wondered why everyone didn't see her as a woman... her beard was as thick as her bush... now that's stupid to me... I have other sisters who decided to transition without even speaking to their wives about it... tell me what kind of love is that... it's stupid... were they just to afraid or was it they didn't give a damn... again if we are woman, why do we act like men... a woman that was going to make a life changing alteration in every ones life that is has been close to, would generally discuss these changes with the one she loves... I know many many trans who just don't give a damn about any of their families, then go on and transition and then whine that their family treats them poorly... do you think simply because you feel this way that you should do it... I believe that is love of oneself over love of one's family... I have considered all the things you have discussed and decided to enjoy being me, instead of trying to change into being some idea I have been taught or have thought I should be...does that make sense... if gender is truly not about sexual orientation, why do I need to change my sex in order to be the gender that I am... that's the question... for if it is simply living our lives as women... one must look at what ones picture of woman truly is... is she submissive to her mate... dos she have to have a coo che for that... I don't think so... to pleasure him does she have to have a cooch for that... no she can pleasure a man or a woman with what she has been given... if she wants to love her children more and be closer to them, does she have to be the woman who birthed them...no... men not women are visual and men are the ones cutting themselves to make themselves look more like the picture of a woman... the picture has something to do with being a woman but it is a very small part of who woman are... when they are younger it is a very big part,but as she ages she matures in her thoughts and learns many many more things about true love that far surpasses any surface beauty that she possesses...again I have no problem with anyone who is not married or without children, transitioning because they are true to themselves... I do however have a major problem with anyone who wants to transition after a wife and children are involved... if they are rich and have provided for their family... I can even understand that... but I see a lot of girls who are just tired of the system it seems and have decided to bail on their families for their own pleasure... to me that is a sin, against their families as well as themselves... also if one cannot pass, why put oneself through the pain... to sadistic for me... It says in the Bible to be long suffering... not long for suffering... lol... I'm sure you are a good person and you have to certainly find your own way... I'm just saying that why not be wise in our choices... why do I need to look like a woman to be one... if you were blind and I took care of you and loved you and nourished you as the woman I am... say you even fell in love with me and the way I loved you... would it matter if I looked like a woman or if I acted like a woman... for me it's the latter... the package doesn't make me a woman... the woman in me makes me one... plus I love love living in a mans body... there are a lot of advantages he has I could never even dream of... the pay is much better than If I were a Genetic Girl... both women and men are attracted to me... I have been able to sire children just like a famous race horse...lol... I am known as a protector to many... mostly my family... and I don't have to find a male to admire his body... I have one I live in... He is always at my command and does whatever I ask for him... and I know as a woman that's what all of us want... a man to hold me... and man to tell me it's going to be alright.. one to tell me I am beautiful and he wants me constantly.... now tell me, why would I ever want to give that up... I am unique from most of my trans sisters in one way because I do not hate what I was given... I discovered long ago as a child I was woman... where I think most of my sister all speak of knowing they were different or something was wrong... and although I knew I was different, I never thought anything was wrong...lol... I love being me, I love having a male at my beckon call... I live that he loves me for creating him and respects me for being his when he wants me... remember God gifted you just as you are... and if you choose to throw some of it away, then so be it... but if you do throw some of yourself away... try not to complain when you realize you needed him all along... I guess that's whats different for me... I don't have one emotion or feeling or desire that I want to give up... I love them all and will cherish them until I go to be the bride with my creator... yes most of transsexuals thoughts are based on the call of God on ours lives... we will be the bride in heaven and we all speak of that... most of us have such a desire for Him(God) that we all want to change into the bride hereon earth...be patient my friend, even if you do not need your male side here on earth... who are we to say that we will not need him or what we have learned from being captured in his body, in the next world... love and grace to you all... look closely at how perfectly made you are... try and change in the spirit before you change the body... for if I change the body before I change my spirit... I may become angry and unsettled... peace to you my beautiful sisters and peace to you my beautiful brothers... we are two who are one ... the rest of the world wants what we already have... when they marry they have even included it in their marriage vows... "and the two shall be as one"... do not give up your birth right as two spirited people... this world is a strange place and we are strangers in a strange land... but oh such a beautiful land it is...
Jeanine- ............................. Amen !
Mary~ Here's the deal...if I don't get out my felings on this, where else do I go? I need a place in this world to...just as you do. I gave all my support, smiles, and 3 cheers to my dad about his change because trans are supposedly fragile. He NEVER had a notion of me being not supportive. NEVER. I kept it all inside. You may think I had no right to be hurt, but I was hurt about the lies I was told as a child. But my father would never listen to my hurt, it was about him and his transition. I cried to myself, not to him, I kept it all inside jsut as a transsexual has to keep their true self inside for years sometimes. You and me not so different in the face of hiding our true colors. My writing has given me an avenue to express those feelings i never could with my dad or friends and family. I hurt inside while my dad got to be who he really was and I hid all my thoughts from him. I sacrficed myself and my felings to be 100% supportive of his change so please don't tell me i was controlling or any of the other nasty things you've said to me. Everything you read in my writing was not shared with my dad. It was shared to strangers because I had no one else to talk to and discuss this with.
So again I ask why would my dad push me away when I showed no inkling whatsoever of being non-supportive.
Did you not read the part about how I am pregnant with a boy and he said if that ever happened again that I should abort it?
My dad does have obsessive compulsive disorder- he was even diagnosed with that. Which means it is his way or no way on everything even things in my own life. I would also add narcissistic personality disorder to that. So me controlling...other way around.
My wish for trans is that they realize the family hurts also, it is not just them.
Easy baby girl... your hormones are going crazy right now.... you don't need to be getting upset...Mary you need to know this is the big leagues so be careful also... there are troops standing here to the side and out of respect to Izettl we haven't jumped you yet... so you don't have to be ugly to be here... you are more than welcome but remember this is a equal opportunity hub so please... read carefully and know there are noy many stupid people here... now that being said you can share all you like, but cannot make it personal... I hope you understand you are welcome but please know we are all paying attention...
Jeanine (and Mary)~ I understand that transitioning is tough and living for changing is agonizing. I know that there is that side of things. THe stuff I write is from the family's point of view and sadly not many trans take time to realize other people suffer as well. A trans thikns how can my family not see I am suffering and believe we are the ones who are selfish, but in my experience not many of the family even knew or did the trans even share any of their thoughts.
Not at all saying they shouldn't change, but to keep the ones closest in the dark about it is wrong, to lie about it helps no one. To not know or explore all the options (change or not change or somewhere in between) is a pity. In a society where men do women's jobs and women have masculine traits, I don't think there is a male or female- one way or no way.
Izetti, I think that's right about the secrecy of the change... there is so much shame in our community that we have forgotten how to be honest with ourselves. If one has lied to oneself for so many years it's easy to overlook the lies that we tell our families... even in my own case and you know how open and how unique mine has been... I lied to my wife without really knowing I was keeping certain parts of my life from her....to you and almost all singletons in the spirit we were lying,, but to us it really has been about survival... most trans have fought long and hard to just stay alive... so by the time we decide to transition, there is only one exist and like cattle to the slaughter we are pushed by the OCD toward the operating tables....instead of running towards the gate ourselves the woman that is dying...literally inside of us is on a collision course with almost all reasonable thought... and in this part of our lives, the mental fortitude is or has already broken down... we are not thinking straight any longer and the thought process has deviated to the unnatural... although it is natual to each of us... because there is the presence of two for all of our lives, we do not see that it is unreasonable to everyone else... I say all of this not to defend the secrecy but to tell you why it exist.... she has been so afraid for all of her life that it's like seeing the light at the end of a giant tunnel where the monsters have been chasing you for all of your life... now that she has finally convinced him to transition, she is running scared toward it... afraid he will turn her down again like he has so many times in her life... this very reason is what is different about my situation... I didn't dislike my guy that I have lived in because he didn't hurt me... understand... it's also the primary reason each of them want to kill their guy part off... they are afraid he will return and make them go back into the closet and well... you can see... she has been a prisoner all of her life... prison is not a good place to live... one hasn't a clue how to be reasonable after this many years of abuse...
She no longer has a handle on reality because he has never let her be at the forefront of anything... when we are younger and create our own alter egos in order to stay alive... she never expects for one moment that he will take over their life and make her stay in the closet... and when he does she is helpless to do anything about it... it's like each of us create our own frankinstein... since there is not parental guidance when we are young... the boy she created abuses the hell out of her... he not only teases her but because she is shy, he eventually takes on the role of being her creator... which is totally backwards... just like all boys he wants to control, so he does... without the parents interceding here... life becomes tragic...so begins the years of hiding... she loves the boy she invented just as I did... the difference is for some reason my boy didn't develop like the others... he didn't take advantage of me... like so many other trans girls I know... part of it was my folks were there for me, the other part is I never considered I was one but always was two... so because the parents let me grow, he never got the upper hand on me... I did and have always looked at him as someone I created... in order to deal with this body I had been given... I do know the frustration that trans have always had to face, but have dealt with it in a variety of different ways... whenever I came to a stumbling block, I was able through my parents to create a different door I might go through, so as a child that positive encouragement became a game that would allow me to breath... therefore I naturally was able to keep him in check... does that make sense... also as we grew older because we were two... he never seemed to try and over take me... it's why I love him so... he is very strong and is my protector, and that's what I needed and why I created him... I don't really know why I was so sure I had created him and he had not created me at such an early age, but I knew it... I hear my sisters talk about they knew they were different at a very early age... I knew I was different but also knew who I was, so I didn't wonder why I was girl trapped in a boys body... I never felt trapped, I just thought this is what I am... never realizing until years later that everyone wasn't like me... by then I didn't care, what they all thought, I didn't need their acceptance, I had my parents and my sister and myself to tell me I was fine, so who were the others and why would I ever believe something any of them said... I am convinced transgender angst is promoted mainly at an early age by unloving and uncreative parenting... I was married and had kids before I actually understood that what I had was frowned upon by some and by then I was involved with the most sexually being on earth... my wife... who had seduced me and was the first woman I had ever known intimately... I did what was natural in my first encounter with intimacy and went down on her... the intercourse was an after thought... and what a great thing that was... I understood immediately that he had qualities... the body I had lived in all of my life had an instrument of pleasure attacked between my legs and I loved him for it... believe or not... I had sex before I had ever masturbated once in my life... I had had accidents in my dreams but was so in the dark that I didn't put the two together... now I did make up for lost time after that night, but was also forever attached at the hip to this wonderful creature who would become my wife... oral sex was and is a major part of my life... although I am always the giver and very rarely the receiver... and that is actually more natural for me... after I learned what a wonderful tool this body I lived in had... I was elated although there was a terrible angst when she went down on me... I was sure her razor teeth would hurt me and damage the gift that I didn't know I had... I never got over that part and still am not very comfortable in that position...thank God she doesn't want that very often... lol...lol strange comment I know... but a real one... I am much more consumed by her holding me and caressing my body in other ways... I say all of this to say, I am finally making it to the title of your hub... Just because you have boobs, doesn't make you a woman.... and from my view just because I don't have boobs doesn't make me a man... I am and will always be very much a woman inside... now that doesn't mean I'm a dumb blond... because as a smart woman I realized that living in a mans body, I have had an amazing life, I have been paid much more than if I had the body of a woman at what I do, I have been protected by this gift of a mans body that I have lived in all my life and I absolutely love having his tool...lol... at my disposal... it's much stronger and more sensitive than a strap on... whenever she needs it... and just like all girls... when I found out what it did after I laid down with my wife... I was in awe of how it worked... I know these thoughts are hard ... no pun intended...lol... to beleive but they did actually happen...lol... I really was a virgin, not only in body but also in emotions and mentally... some might see that as a little behind... but to be honest with you... since hormones my behind is round and quite nice... thank you... lol... hope this lets you in a on a little different take of what means to be a boob... oh my I mean to have boobs... no that's not it at all... I mean to have boobs doesn't mean you are a woman... or from my perspective.. just because you have a tool... doesn't mean you are a guy either...lol...lol...lol
Amazing hub!
On facebook recently I was sort of attacked as a "bigot" for insisting that this man who'd had boobs installed (while still having his "package") was, in fact, a man.
Folks called me a "bigot" for not accepting that this person was a "woman."
I'm sorry - the person still had the male genatalia, and even if he didn't, I'd still insist that he was a man.
Not meaning to offend anybody but when I read the following, I think it's a near perfect description of 'Jeanine'
"Narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity."
You're in love with yourself, and it shows. Your writing is all about you; your 'special' gift of being a man (nothing special about that), your magnificient and almight body and especialy your so called 'tool', lol. I think you have a very limited knowledge of gender issues. All your posts lack substance and are certainly not authorative by any means. To gain the little knowledge you have in this subject area would probably take under an hour to accomplish by going to a library and browsing a few books. You make many references to TG and TS as "us" and "we" but when you make a point against any TG/TS men or women, suddenly it's all 'you' and 'them', exactly as one would do to distance themselves from the scum because you're so much better, aren't you? You're quite chauvinistic - "Easy baby girl" and many other instances too. You are so very condescending, "Mary you need to know this is the big leagues so be careful also". Who are you? And why do you refer to any of this as being in the 'big' leagues? Are you referring to these hub pages? If so, nothing could be any further from the truth because the majority of hub pages are written by people who know next to nothing about the topics they choose to write about.
Wesman Todd Shaw~ I completely understand your thoughts and would actually agree to a certain point. There's just so much grey area. Most want their outsides to match the insides so society will recognize them as such and when they're half/half like what you described, it's hard for any of us to recognize them as what they "want" to be instead of what they physically are.
Hub Reader~ Interesting comment. You are right on some aspects. Trans are often preoccupied with themselves and most consider them a "unique" or "exclusive" group. From my point of view I can't truly understand it because I am not one so I can't come to as many conclusions as you have. Many, like my dad, turn inward and become what looks to most of us like selfishness, but it's somehow out of necessity. They live on our world but really haven't found their place yet. There is also some obsession and OCD tendencies, as Jeanine has admitted in comments, and my dad displays evenbefore his change.
The parts I can't agree with you is that the comments lack substance- Jeanine writes music and many of her comments are lyrical, if you can get into that, it's nice. And... she taught me how to understand my dad much more than I did before writing some of these types of hubs. I think some of those quoted phrases are along the lines of teasing and some people don't get it. It's all fun and play in that aspect. It's a serious topic for most so I can see where that would be misunderstood.
It's true we can gain knowledge into this area with a few books...probably, but we woud have no insight. "jeanine" on here is a true expression of trans community. Many are like this so it is a wonderful representation that a book would not give us.
ouch... Maybe I deserved that... maybe I didn't... the fact is I have been diagnosed with gender variant behavior... and I hope you know it took me about 5 therapist before I would look as if they might be right to some extent about some of it...and you are right in that I am confident in myself... I'm sure you may be right that my own psychosis could be a big part of my discussion... I am different than you in that I don't need your opinion to validate what I believe has happened to me... as far as being shallow... I'm as guilty as the next... I had rather laugh than cry and say oh me... what am I going to do... Izettl knows more than we do because she has lived her part of this with her father... I know more about what has happened to me than any other person on earth... I am sure of that... as far as this being a tribe of greatness, there are very few trans that have ever argued with that... are you trans... and if so... I hope it is treating you well... my opinion is later transitions don't go so well for "Us" or let me say "me", I don't like the idea of me having to hurt the people I have loved all my life just to get a non...tool as I think you referred that I referred to... what do you call your's... winky or pee pee..lol... where ever little boys do...I'm sure you are confident with your woman right... and just because you don't see a wimp where you would rather see one...many peoples picture of trans... doesn't mean I can't be myself... I don't have to be the pic that you paint of my tribe or of my disorder... I am not a girl or a woman... I am a man... who knows women from a trans veiw, that's
all...
I do take a slight offense in that you have not told me your own gender... if you are a male then I can forgive you... for you are on your way out anyway... man's days are numbered... I don't care if you believe it or not... when enough of us have told them how unique they are, then they will begin to believe it, then you can do what ever they tell you... she's already telling you behind closed doors... right... "hurt is an old gun... try not to use it on anyone... old guns are known for their instability... and often back fire" ....
Now if you are a man, let me apologize and say how beautiful I think you really are... I would just do anything for you sweet... because I just can't think straight when you take your shirt off and you have been outside sweating and working so hard... and I did notice how you brought, what was it you say..."Tool"... I'm sure if we can find the right girl for you, you be pleased...lol... hey seriously though... you a right to your opinion and I think you know as much as anyone on this disorder... God knows if you ask any of..."oops" I almost said if you ask any of us... but if you ask any trans if they know why it happened ... not one will tell you they know why... so live and let live... you may be a genius and have just solved the whole damn thing sweet heart... and if you did... my hat is off to you and I will kneel at your feet, you wonderful blessed my hero of a man...lol...lol... sorry life really is a bitch for some of us...
Hub reader, I also sat with the head of the John Hopkins project years ago as they were closing the project... I asked him why... He said "that we(Doctors) are clueless when it comes to transgender... they were the first to operate and the first to stop their program... now see if you can find that info on the web, or in twenty minute like you said... I'm probably older than you, so you FYI, Ive had to deal with much larger asses than you... I hate that you had to try and make me feel bad to make yourself more important... I don't care if you believe like I do... I'm just saying what if... there are other men like me... that love there families more than themselves... wouldn't that be a better world for you and I... if I am like you say... trying to make myself more important in my own eyes... is that such a bad thing to try and be... this disorder or gift or whatever you want to call it, destroys families... I just don't want that for my family and in trying to deal with it, stumbled upon "two spirited people"... look it up, it's not like I made it up... wouldn't you rather deal with someone who liked themselves instead of someone who didn't, is all I'm saying... we all have something... trans are just unafraid to let you see them as they want to be... we all hide something, what does one like yourself who is so righteous hide... hope you are feeling better today...
Jeanine~ I don't think even I can understand and neither can "hub reader" but the difference is I want to understand to the best of my ability- I have stock/big investment riding on this (my dad), but I don't think hub reader understands and that's when people lash out. Fact is, the trans I know have many of the traits or tendencies that you have displayed in your comments. It is wonderful insight and has helped me. Perhaps hub reader doesn't need to understand and that's ok but the hurt and lashing out is unnecessary.
izetti, Vote up! That is an amazing story. I could not even think if my dad had a sex change. I feel for you every girl needs their dad, people are who they are but sometimes the ones around them get hurt more by changing. Good luck to you.
Hi Izetti, hope you are well... hey I thought about what Hub reader said and some of it has to be true...it's hurtful but hey it is what it is... I'm really here to know about how to advoid putting my children through the pain that you have described... HR may be right in that I may because of how freed up your site are... I may have over stayed my welcome and if I have been smothering you with my comments... I am truly sorry...I will try and noy monopolize the conversation...I just what to be the best I can be so you have helped me face some of this, specially about the children of trans... you know I love all of your writings... not just the gender stuff...
Susan~ I can't blame trans parents for needing to change, it's just hard on the families- no way around it. It's been about 10 yrs since my dad changed and I've accepted him as her, but of course I still have questions unanswered and my dad isn't the dad I had growing up, but I guess I'm not necessarily that little girl anymore. THanks so much for stopping by.
Izettl
I just wanted to say how much your hub has helped me.
My father had been a cross dreaser from his teens. I have know from 6 or 7.
3 yr. ago he sent me a letter telling me his decision to be a woman full time.
In this letter he hoped that I could understand. He wanted me to welcome him as
her into my home. My wife and kids new him as grandpa. His thoughts on my children were that they are young (9&11) and could probably acept it beter than me. (His total reasoning sounded like brain washing to me)
He had my mother deliver the letter along with one from her that suported his decition. (Never mind she had devorced him 5 yr. Before at least partly because of his cross dressing)
Like you it was quite a blow and I was very angry.
Up untill today any time I did a search on the subject and I mostly found
TG's telling me I have a problem and should be more accepting. Sounding very much like my dad. Some of the language sounded like he cut and pasted from the website to his letter.
I am so thankfull for you're page
I also would like to thank Jeanine
I apteciate your spirit and tone. You help me to undetstand what may be going on in my fathers head. I want to say that although hubreader may have had some points to think about, his tone and attacks did not sit well with me. I hope you don't leave. Please don't. I realy apriciate your insight. Like you I have what society would tag as feminine qualitys. I am ok with them and think they make me a more well rounded man. I don't split them into two distinct halves, but I am not you and thats ok.
Thank you all
Hi P... I want leave , just have been busy... and most men do have a fem side, just some of are actually two spirited... which the world calls trans... I am so happy that we have been a help to you, in this struggle, because it is a struggle... most of my tribe have had to fight to stay alive and it is a very sad moment to hear what hubreader had said... but alas... he is not me and nor do I know what he has had to face in his life,so maybe he was just having a bad day... we don't protect men as much as we should when it comes to their emotions,so if he is like many other men, it was very hard for him to say anything really...I am very glad you have faced your own feminine side... most trans that I know, had a bad experience when they were younger so they went into hiding at that time... so your dad is suffering from massive trauma that comes from the hiding... I don't really think any man would transition fully if he had not been hiding for most of his life... the OCD coupled with this gift, reacts in a strange way if it is not freely expressed... like a bird that knows it's can sing... if you make it be quiet then after a while, it either dies from a broken heart or realizes that it is dying so it takes the chance and tries to break out... after each of no song... it really doesn't know how to sing any more, but the vision of when it could sing is so prevalent that it makes the effort... so that's where a lot of my trans friends are... we are all caught between where we are and where we want to be... most men and women have these traits... the difference with this gift is... because we do not see our real selves looking back from the mirror, we often get caught in trying to fix that first... when in reality, we shouldn't try to fix the physical before we look at the mind... once we look at the mind it's obvious there is nothing wrong with us... and that's my point of contention....the medical community has decided something is wrong with us... and that's just not true...well... maybe a little...lol...
Janine
You are definately write about the trauma. He had a very bad cleft pallet and an overbearing mother. I think he had his last surgery in high-school. Whatever happened between my grandmother and my father left him with extreme anger towards her to this day. I don't claim to understand why, but I am sure this early turmoil in his life was what started my dad down this life long road.
I have never put OCD as part of the problem. I can see how it would be exsponetialy more difficult to deal with because of that.
Thanks
Pringles
Hi P, the OCD is a factor in that the confusion becomes the focus... the why... is this happening finally gives way to.... how do I get away from it...finally you give in to what the therapist says and begin to think there is no way out except to change parts... and I must admit that the "shiny vaginee" is very tempting..lol... but then I found the info on "two spirited people"... I realized they have been a tribe with these same symptums as all trans have except they delt with it differently... their handling it carried them to be in the presence of Kings and queens all over the world...
I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts and feelings, as another person trying to come to terms with transsexualism. Sorry if me saying 'I' a lot offends anyone its not because I'm being selfish, I can only write about my own experiences and struggle and its effects on people around me. After 39 years of life, 12 years of marriage and the birth of the person that means the most to me in the entire universe, I reached a point about 1 1/2 years ago where I could no longer repress how I was feeling and I had a breakdown. I had to seek help, if I hadn't I'm 100% sure I would no longer be here. Every week for the past 1 1/2 years, I've been seeing a psychologist to try and work through the mess that repressing things for all those years has left in my head. A number of times over that period I've needed the psych or relied on my new found transgender friends and allies just to keep me alive
See, I always thought, partly because my parents made me think that everybody had the same issues and that being transgender or homosexual (different things I know) were a choice; people like that are weak and shouldn't give in...right? So ever since I was a child, I repressed everything and "chose" (lolz....did that ever come back to bite my *ss) to be cisgender and hetrosexual. This was always a struggle for me especially when I had other stresses in my life. I'm not sure if anyone reading this who hasn't experienced the same thing will understand how much hurt, fear, self-hate, pain and shame one can accumulate over a lifetime of doing this to yourself. I developed dysfunctional coping strategies to help me manage it all, you won't believe the amount of effort it takes; somehow you have to let the pressure out when you can....alchohol, drugs anything that would numb my thoughts and turn off my brain. When it overflowed, when I was having a stressful time, I would crossdress to let off the steam. Denying who you are as a person, devaluing yourself to the point where you can ignore what you are doing and lie to yourself....I didn't do that for myself, I probably did it for my parents at first and then for the other people that I met whilst growing up and making sense of the world. Then I carried on doing it because I thought all the people around me would reject me. I always tried so hard to be the boy/man I thought other people would want me to be. Its difficult for me even now to see any value in being me, I have no sense of self worth, I have problems with intimacy because I've always been hiding, scared of people "finding out" whats really in my head, I get serious anxiety attacks, I hardly have any self-esteem, I go through periods of dark suicidal depression, although I'm getting better slowly, because slowly I'm accepting who I am and starting to love myself; something I've never experienced. But isn't marriage to a beautiful person that you love deeply, having a daughter who is the most important thing in my world, having a great education, career, home...isn't that enough to make me happy and fulfilled in my life even though I might be gender variant?. I've asked myself that question so many times. I thought that it was possible for it be, when I was going through my life denying how I felt - look where it got me. I want it to be, so much, but I don't have that choice, because as much as I carry on trying to repress things so that things stay the same, my dysfunctional behaviour and dysphoria about my gender increase. Many days I can't communicate or interact in a normal way with other people, its hard if not impossible to do my job, have a relationship with my daughter or wife and maintain a normal life. Then there's the really dark times, when getting out of bed and getting to the end of the day is a struggle for survival in itself. Where would my daughter be then if I really didn't exist anymore with the trauma that I would cause to everyone around me? Yeah thats selfish, but when you feel that bad and you want it all to end, you aren't thinking about anything other than escaping the pain..
Reasonable adults might ask, "Why should an innocent child have to *chose* to hide who they are from everyone else? How much trauma might that cause someone if they did that all their lives? Is it really possible to ignore who you are and be okay at the end of it? (Do you know what the suicide rate is amongst transgender people?), What would It be like and what sort of psychological state would I be in, if I had to bury my sexuality or the fact that I felt like I wasn't the correct gender all of my life" - If you are cisgender and heterosexual try imagining what it would be like pretending to everyone and yourself all your life, that you are Homosexual or the opposite gender to the one you were assigned at birth. Everyone you ever came into contact with thinks that you are Homosexual or the opposite gender despite how you feel.
The same person could also reasonably go on to ask "Why should a child have to lose the person that she's always known as her father or mother?, How could someone lie about there real feelings to the people that they love and care for?, Why does someone not have the sense of duty - after lying for so long and misleading everyone - to do whats best for the people in the situation that they've partly created?"
Its all a tragedy, no child should have to grow up in either situation, the first childs trauma and experiences don't cancel out the latter's trauma and experiences or vice versa, the latter doesn't cancel the former. The really serious tragedy...crime even (no I don't think that's too string a word), is that we live in a world where this situation is allowed to arise in the first place. When we talk about trans peoples looks, how they act, how they changed if they transitioned...it seems we forget that a very large number of trans people know there is something wrong from a very early age, this is not noticed, acknowledged or even at worst denied by people (usually adults) around them, if people weren't mis-gendered for such a long time this situation wouldn't arise. I also think a lot of cisgendered people would be surprised at how many trans people they come into contact with that they don't recognise as transgender because they pass so well (Yes...believe me...there are plenty of people that pass that well). If a cisgender man and a transgender man both pass equally well as a male, how would you be able to tell whether they were really male, outside of them relating their own personal experience, or your knowledge that they were assigned female gender at birth?
I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, I just wondered if it would help adding more transgender experiences to your discussion.
Vanessa
Hi Vanessa... actually we all need your comments and I do as well... I am so sorry you are fighting still... but it is part of the healing... one of the reasons I am so interested in "two spirited" people is that they embraced their gender variance with honor and grace... and because of that were held in high esteem.... the one thing that all of us seem to be laking is that esteem... I am slightly different in that my parents never made this a big deal... I am in the arts so dressing as me is and has been for years a pretty common thing... in public... because I am both spirits living in one body, I am free to lean either way... I know how blessed I am to be able to do this... and I also know that is has helped me keep my sanity... I will keep you in my prayers and please do the same for me...it will get better so lose the suicide thoughts... thats foolish... you can become who you want so be patient with yourself...I never heard of transgender until late in my life and by then I had lived a very long time as a man... so my thoughts or if I have lived this long as a man and have never had the opportunity to live as a woman except as living in this man... I have been able to put away some of the things that bothered me most....because of an understanding family I haven't wore one gender specify clothing in forty years... I am a woman who lives in a man's body... and take advantage of it everyday... the pay is better than if I were a GG and I am in love with a woman so there are some advantages to having the equipment that she might want, instead of strapping it on...although after hormones.. that relic is more symbolic...lol...but does remind me of a life when I was wild and crazy... and well you get the picture... please continue to tell your story... you are always welcome here...
THank you Pringles for stopping by and commenting. I needed to hear everybody's input and comments and that's why I write about this topic. It's helps me as much as it helps you or anyone else. THanks again. Please feel free to add any other thoughts at any time.
what native children you are, appearently you all no nothing about what it is really like to be transsexual.You say we are selfish and self centered, well girls let me tell you this is much harder on us then you kids, leaving my wife and child was the most traumitic thing I ever had to do.I do not think you all have read any of the biological research that supports that for us this in not a choice are only other alternative is death. When I lost my family over this due to thier nownevious, it tore me up inside so much, that I had a nervous breakdown. Do you think this was fun for us.Like the rest of you my daughter feel the same way, ingorance and idiorocoty have brought you all to this point. Listen girls I think it 9s time that you all grew up, and faced reality and stop playing the blame game, and learn to come to the realization that things happen that are beyhond your control. Do you know how much we hurt within inside from haveing to give you up, just be glad that you were not afficlted this way from birth.
michelle~ leaving your family was not the hardest thing you ever had to do because you did it. The reality is living as a man was the hardest thing you had to do. I'm a bilogical woman and I'll tell you the hardest thing I could never do is leave my two kids or do anything to purposefully jeopardize my relationship for them.
Many trans don't get my message. That is...it's not that you or any other father (mother maybe) gets a sex change, it's usually that there are many lies involved, secrets kept from us kids, betrayal and lashing out if you are not accepted by your children. It's not the sex change, it's the way it occurs. My dad led a secret life and never mentioned a sex change until months after he got one when i was supposed to visit him and he wasn't even going to tell me before I got there. I know many kids of trans that this sectretiveness has happened to.
The fact that you say grow up, blah blah blah to the kids well grow up to the more grown-ups than us (our parents). Face the facts that we do feel hurt and we're allowed. If you felt hurt leaving your family how do you think the kids feel having been left. A rape vicitim has had something happen to them beyond their control and would you ever say "grow up and fact the reality that things happen beyond your control". I know you trans hurt if you've had to leave a family, I just don't even know why you start families, lying to those you love. It isn't harder on you than it is the kids. It is much easier in any relationship to leave than to be left. Come on...you know that. Kids always blame things on themselves, even a simple divorce, kids internalize. But thanks for your input.
Michelle... I am transsexual... or that's what the five therapist that I have gone to say... I have been this way most of my life but have a different take on what has happened to us... I was very protected as a child and my parents made no big deal of it... when was me I was me... sometimes the boy sometimes the girl...I am in the entertainment feel and have been all my life so I have dressed pretty much how I wanted too all my life... Because I was brought up as this was a gift instead of a curse... I don't hate my male body... he's more like my imaginary friend that is real... I am two spirited.... two spirits living as one... because i didn't know what transsexuals are and were according to the medical community... I had married and had children before some one finally diagnosed this gift in me... I went to many different therapist in hopes of a different result... unfortunately or fortunately for me... I did not find one therapist that disagreed... I have gone to group for years now and have a lot of the same angst everyday that you display and most of my T friends display... as I continued to listen and search for someway out without hurting the family I love so dearly... I listened to most of my TS friends talk about how hurt there were about how their families had acted... each one always returning to medical communities matra that transition was the only way we can ever be happy... I have spent years with some of my friends and they are still not happy... and most are so beautiful inside and out... I continued to search the web and go to any place I could to find any relief... I found two spirits on the web and after some years of reserch am convinced we have been sold a bill of goods by the medical community... there is a lack of education in the medical community of our history... if you read you will see it's the only time in history that TS were revered for being the way we are... before the medical community helped us we were advisers to Kings and leader all over the world... since they have helped us, we are the pride of the Jerry Springer Show... here's my own assessment ... "if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as you do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in"... please educate as many as you can.. read your own history... I do understand what you did was unavoidable for you... what I am saying is... what if all of our parents had handled us differently... and this was looked upon as a gift instead of a curse by them... it's not their fault that our history has been erased by the Christians... yes I am Christian and fell in love with the Christian God... but before they came we were , the spiritual leaders and healers in almost every tribe on earth... read it... it's there... known in some tribes as the keepers of the secrets of God... now here's my question to you... because you are part of my tribe and I love the gifts you have been given... look deep in your heart and tell me... what you know and remember about God... most of my trans friends are very spiritual... what if... the info we read was bad... and the true info had been hidden from us... from our parents and even from the medical community... if little Johnnie said I feel like a girl I think I am a girl... what would you do as a parent... you would finally take him to the medical community... who had never been educated on our history... just a thought but there is a history to back me up... I can never be more by them making me less... we are not bound by the binary system... we are two spirits living as one... why do we have to be one or the other... ask the binaries.. lol... so you are right... it's time we all grew up... hope you have a wonderful day... thanks so much for sharing and please we need more gender variant people to explore instead of just trust the doctors on everything... the more I read the more I believe we have been hood winked by a community that wants to do surgery...
J~ I love that "if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as you do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in" And that's so true. The only women who intentionally hurt their children have a mental illness.
The info out there is bad and that's why I'm glad you can portray another view. A view that is better for some, not for others, but should at least be considered by all.
"we need more gender variant people to explore instead of just trust the doctors on everything... the more I read the more I believe we have been hood winked by a community that wants to do surgery.." Great! Well said.
We trust the doctors who treat our symptoms on everything else and not the cause. they are not known for considering the mind and the body...or even the heart and soul of an individual. At most you get an hour at a time with them- hey, I've been through the ins and outs of the medical community for other things and I know they don't consider people as individuals, they only really have time to view trans as a group and a one size fits all treatment.
Most people do not know that when Hilary care was not adopted by the Gov't... the private sector did embrace it... and that's what we have today... everyone is a specialist... and that's fine... but I do miss the doctor who knows me well enough to know if I am well or not... understand...I still long for the doctor who knows more than one thing... and I know my GP is that doc... it's medicine for god's sake... we should know each other before taking these drugs...lol...lol...lol
Agreed Jeanine! I miss the doctor that would go ahead and tell me to give my baby some whiskey to help with teething,etc but Docs can't do that anymore. Everybody gets sued now. Don't get me started on specialists.
I find it incredibly sad that you hold so much hated for your father. I hope someday you find it in your heart to love and accept people for who they are rather than who you wish them to be.
Jenna~ I think most people are confusing my anger towards the fact that my dad got a sex change when that is not the anger. the anger is the lies I was told as a kid when my dad dressed up as a woman and I thought that was normal and then I was supposed to cover that up too- no child should have to be lied to. Many children in my position feel the same. You must not be in my position, but thanks for the comment.
I'm confused as to your thoughts about the "lies" to be honest. In one paragraph (in part 1) you say:
"If transsexuals describe their need to change as something they "have/had to do" then why are there so many secrets, insecurities, and sensitivity from them after the fact?"
Then you go on to describe your father as "sickening" and "disgusting".
Is it any wonder that people with this condition keep it secret and may not even know the truth themselves until such point in their lives that they finally realize it? Is it any wonder that trans people feel insecure or uncomfortable around people in society who will stare, mock, and even murder them simply because of who they are?
You are accusing your father of lying when in fact she may not have been. She might have simply not known what her true feelings were about who she really is for a long, long time, having hid it deeply inside of herself for fear of persecution and being called "sickening" and "disgusting" by a society which has shown itself time and time again to be intolerant of anything different than the norm.
As a psychologist I am frankly amazed that you don't understand this. People hide things away, sometimes purposely, sometimes not, when they feel those things could cause them harm. That's just what people do. Feelings and events get repressed and sometimes don't show themselves for a long time, if they do at all.
Your father loves you. She's not trying to hurt you. She's just trying to be who she is. Just like all of us.
Jenna... what if you all have been sold a bill of goods... I think the medical community is clueless ... they admit it openly.... there is so little known about gender that you could be one of those smart people like the scientist who believed the earth was flat... one day they were doing what was right the next day... they were well... not the smartest any more... it's not about hate dear... it's about... why does everyone want us to be male or female... two spirited people have been here since the dawn of time... until the medical community decided we needed their help we were the advisers to kind and leader all of the world... read it , there is a history ... google it.. "two spirited"...
Jenna.. also there is no getting around this statement..."if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as so many other transgendered people do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact the woman in this body would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in" whether you are trans or not... one must face that this is a real question... there are no women on earth that intentionally hurt their children... and as trans, if we do what the medical community suggest... what are we... on our very first step toward womanhood... we indite ourselves as being men... now men... throughout history have hurt or killed their young... in the animal kingdom and in many kingdoms of the earth, a man has taken the life of his son to retain power... so wake up... my opinions are not so fly by night... look up our history... this time... now... in history is the time we have been respected the least and the least power we have had in centuries... take a guess what that might be... when they make us like you or like any other binary... we are no longer unique... but they make us less... and tell us we should want to be like them... a woman or a man to be happy... what a crock, we are unique simply because we are born this way... does it not seem strange to you that they think something is wrong with us... it strikes me as very odd... that we would take a child that has both spirits and try and make them one or the other... why is the question... is it because if there became to many of us... we might challenge the binary system... I don't really know... what I do know is... there is no doctor that I know of that even knows our history... why is that...
It was sickening and disgusting to me to suddenly see my dad as a woman- I did not see him ofr two years and missed the "transition". It was night and day for me and it made me physically ill. You being a psychologist should know people are entitled to their feelings and when it home and a lot closer to the heart, there are more intense feelings. Prior to my dad, I had been friends with a transsexual man to woman and that did not make me sick at all because I was not tied into that person like i was with my dad. The public shouldn't look on with disgust unless it is a personal issue like it is with me. I do not feel and never felt that way with any variety of people. I think many of them seem like they are playing a part and in a way they are...until they get the hang of it- they do not seem comfortable.
I agree with Jeanine in that we do not offer any choices for them- what if it's possible to live as two in one (two-spirited)? What if you are contributing to the type of public persecution you are speaking of and counseling an individual who wants to be transsexual- most psychologists believe there is only one choice for trans to be happy and that is get the surgery. I think psychologists and doctors are largely contributing to the demise of these types of people and the tearing apart of families. What if your group (psychologists) have it all wrong?
I wanted badly to be a part of my dad's life in my early 20's before his surgery and I knew he was dressing up and going out to the city with friends, so you can see that this came between us. It consumed my dad and I was not a part of such a big part of him. His obsession with designer wigs and clothes and make-up while I was barely able to pay for stuff as a kid after my parents' got divorced.
And while my dad was trying to figure out who he was when I was a kid, it was done in front of me- I statedin this hub that he would dress up in front of me. So is it right for an adult to figure out something of sensitive nature in front of their kids. Does someone wondering their gay openly act out to try it out in front of their kids- God, I hope not. Imagine seeing your dad dressing up when you were a child and trying to make it a game so you would go along with it- wouldn't you be confused. If my dad, who was the adult, was confused imagine how a 5 yr old processes that. I'll let you figure that out since you are the psychologist. Unless you're PhD I've had as much schooling as you have in psychology. It's easy to make generalizations when you're not sitting in the hot seat. Shall we talk about your childhood?
My dad (also stated in this hub) said he knew who he was from the time he was a child. So the lie is marrying my mom, having a child, and living that life for 18 yrs.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not a psychologist, I was saying that you "as a psychologist"; I'm sorry for the confusion.
You say in your latest comment:
"while my dad was trying to figure out who he was when I was a kid, it was done in front of me- I statedin this hub that he would dress up in front of me. So is it right for an adult to figure out something of sensitive nature in front of their kids. Does someone wondering their gay openly act out to try it out in front of their kids- God, I hope not."
Yet you still stand by the hurt you feel in that she lied to you.
I'm just sorry to see you hurting and I'm sorry to see your father hurting. I have no idea of the true situation and I can only make guesses based on your story.
The problem that I have with a story like this is that it only serves to cause more people to hide their true selves. There is no happy conclusion to your story, only the sad ending that you are hurt by your father. You're hurt because he lied to you, not because he is transsexual, yet the transsexual message is the one being heard loud and clear.
The message you seem to be giving is that it's not ok to hide who you are, but it's not ok to be who you are either. If your father had admitted who he was before marrying your mother and having you as a child, then perhaps that is ultimately what you wish for. I don't know.
I don't think being transsexual makes one not worthy of being a parent, but that doesn't mean I don't also feel your pain.
Finally, you ask if we shall talk about my childhood. I was born and raised in a cult religion: Jehovah's Witnesses, and I got out in my late teens. Most of my family (and extended family) is still in it and refuses to have any contact with me. I have some deep issues as a result of years of brainwashing and indoctrination, and at 42 years old I am still to this day struggling with them. I never got to celebrate holidays or birthdays. I was told that people outside the "truth" weren't my friends. My parents taught me to hate anyone who wasn't like me (JW) and that everyone in the world was evil. I was not allowed to be who I really am. My childhood was full of mental abuse and self doubt. My father didn't wear a dress but he did wear a belt, and it quite frequently found it's way to my rear end.
I hurt still, and I naturally react when other people hurt. I read your story and I know you're hurting, and I'm sorry for that. Try to make peace with your father. Let her know what you think of what she did, and really, truly listen when she tells you why... as long as she really truly listens to you. If not, then let go. Let her go, and let yourself free from the pain.
@Jeanine: I am very familiar with the "two spirit" concept, as with other gender related issues. I hear what you're saying about the psychological and medical "industries", believe me. I also know that there is no easy answer to anything. Society won't know what to make of "two spirit" people any more than they know what to make of binary people. Your experience is that of being two spirit. Not everyone's is. Everyone is different and everyone should have a chance to be their true selves... in a perfect world.
My personal pain about the situation should not be confused with society's view on transgenders. I feel the way I do because it is my dad- a part of the child must grieve their "old" parent before the transition. I lost my dad...in a way.
I think talking about this stuff is better than not. By me talking about it, does not contribute to society not understanding trans. I think lack of acceptance is because people do not understand and we don't understand because we don't talk about it. I wrote about my true feelings- people write about losing loves and other things that hurt, but suddenly I shouldn't do that because its taboo when it comes to touchy subjects like gay, bi, trans, etc. In our society, it's not politically correct to talk ill of those things...even if I'm just expressing my personal experience and feelings just as someone might do should they break up with someone.
I think my dad should have been honest with my mom about who he was before marrying her. I wish he would have talked to me about things...transitioning instead of he's here one day and not the next.
I am sorry for your childhood- I am always sorry for children who are raised in a situation and brainwashed. I feel similar in that I thought it was normal what my dad did and yet I was told not to tell anybody either so I was quite mixed up and had to learn about men by myself because I did not get to truly know men as a kid- my view was skewed. Just like you had to realize the world and people who were not JW were not the way your parents made you think.
Thanks for the comment and discussion.
In a perfect world... interesting comment... let me hip you to some of the info you don't know about Izettl... I have known her a while and her words are very powerful... all the things you have suggested she do with her dad, she has done... except she will not nor should she give Her dad up...read her hubs pertaining to gender and you'll find a young woman's view is all...
I do take issue that you believe everyone should be accepting of the way we as trans should be accepted for our behavior with our families... it's against the law to abuse a child or her mother... yet you seem to think.. or state that it's all right in this case to lie, to cheat, in that he kept the money for his clothes instead of helping his child...and the worse of all, he denied his child the intimacy of a father and daughter relationship...
I am two spirited and there is a real choice in my life... I will not put myself before my family... Christ came and gave his life for all of us... he also gave us the prime example of what one should do for their family... whether you believe in him or not... He gave His life for His family... that would be us... so that every man and woman would know... and have an example to live by...
where you think "two spirited" is part of the gender community, I believe it is the umbrella that all gender related issues fall under... the entire GLBT community falls under it... so don't just brush it to the side... if you are a young man... before you die, you will see that I am right... right now at this time in history, trans are experimenting with being free... and a lot of those who transition at this time will be known as pioneers... but there comes a day... and I hope it's soon... "For the people of this world are more shrewd than the people of the light.... I tell you, use your worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings"... Jesus... that is beautiful...yes I know... big week this week... yes it is... I wonder what those guys down at the church are up to... lol... hey that passover festival is getting old... Pete.."Lets give em something to talk about"...stop man, this serious... how are you going to change the Gov't... awww we'll come to a crossroads in the path... then you'll see... I'm sure we'll take the high road......when we all decide to stay in the bodies we are given... take a look at our gay community... look how far they have come and how far they will go... why is that... it's because just like us they have a different sexual preference, but chose to stay in the body... they are doing quite well as a community... Trans happen to be so spiritual that our own psychosis drives us to not sin against our God... we were the keepers of the secrets of God, before the Christian made it to the scene... don't you wonder why our history is hidden... think about it... the Christians built their religion on our relationship...with God...convenient that that only tells the stories of thousands of years ago... why wouldn't you tell what is happening to you now... could one of the reasons be... you don't know the God that you are talking about... you say JW is a cult... what if the entire Christian religion is a facade... I am Christian but I wonder sometimes... I have a relationship with this God that is on going each day, each hour, each minute and if I can pay attention, each moment if different with this God... when He said I am the "I am".. do you know what that means... it means I am the God of present, the God of now... understand...
I hope I am explaining this without sounding like I am whipping you... I just need you to know
Are you trans and if you are are you living your life... the one thing that is different about two spirits is that we believe we are to live freely in both genders all of our lives... we use the body we are given... it's only for a while here on earth anyway... we don't believe in leaving our families nor do our families leave us... for you who do not know us... we were referred to as the old ones... not because we are old... but because we are mature in responsibilities to the world He has given us... our families would be the first world He has given us... understand..
We are here to help you understand each other... do know before the Christians got here... there was no word for divorce in most tribes of the world... guess who was advising the tribes at that time... you would be right ... that would be us... not trans... "Two spirits"... trans is just the new buzz word... read your history dear... Izettl is a child that was abused by an immature "two spirited" man who wanted to be one or the other... we are both living as one... Two are half of who they were... and I know how harsh that sounds, but it's true and the older you get, the more you will realize we are here to protect you... not be like you... why do you think Trans are unhappy...lol... your medical community is so clueless they have all decided that it's because we aren't women... or men... and that's a good guess from someone who hasn't a clue how this feels inside... the real answer is we are unhappy because we are not living as two... have a great day...and read...lol... it helps you learn...lol...
Damn Gina people write comments like their writing a book. Otherwise great hub.
you would be correct... about the book I mean...
Jeanine- sometimes yo uwrite a book but there are some gold nuggets of info and thoughts in your comments such as: "I am two spirited and there is a real choice in my life... I will not put myself before my family... Christ came and gave his life for all of us... he also gave us the prime example of what one should do for their family... whether you believe in him or not... He gave His life for His family... that would be us... so that every man and woman would know... and have an example to live by..." Very true!
You talk about living as one or the other and even though my dad got his sex change, it seems he is living mroe like both. I think after the change he realized she is both and is now most comfortable that way- if only he realized he didn't need to change to have that life where she could still reside within him.
Travis~ thanks glad you enjoyed the hub.
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Hi Izettl... hey are you running a dating site now...lol...lol that's great...
I am so sorry I write so much... but hey I am passionate about this and know that we as a community have either been led astray or we are so unimportant to the medical community that they haven't even looked up our history... I to wished more of my tribe would see what they are doing to us... we are like drunken Indians, rushing toward transition... I'm glad your dad at least can be comfortable now as two... we are two and always will be... it's not really his fault, the medical community has chosen to tell a half truth here... and I don't why really... I just know it's going on...
Jeanine~ Well my dad didn't work in the entertainment industry like you so he could not easily express his feminine side, he worked for the government and that probably wasn't the most flexible environment. I think he gives himself "permission" now to be seen as both now that he transitioned. You have done that without the unnecessary (for some) surgery.
Those guys in the Gov't are crooks....
it's the patience that is missing in my tribe right now... when we were raised as women with mens bodies we were not so uptight... taught to be compassionate, to love above all things... to respect our mothers and be like them when we could... because we are both... we fit into either house hold... to be with a man or a woman...I am married to a woman but it's the man part of me that she needs... the woman that I am... she is just friends with... that's one thing the modren trans community see's differently than our forefathers.... but it is what separated us... today's trans wants his wife to treat him like a woman but love him like he is still a man... that's not how it goes... so most of my tribe today, make some crazy hurt for all those involved and end up losing the wife as a friend also...all I'm saying is... if you are a woman and you transition... why would you expect the woman you married to feel the same about you... that's almost an impossibility... the reality is you would have to know how to be not only a woman instantly, but be provocative enough... without being weird to attract a woman who knew you and fell in love with you as a man... that is such a long shot... and shows how over confident and very masculine in thought the trans in question has become... some fantasy that she has been carrying for such a long time... the very fact that trans do not adjust well if their wives reject the idea... shows that he is not female at all... a female would be able to adjust to anything really... look at birth... oh my...or an abusive husband... God forbid... women will do almost anthing to protect their kids, even to the point of keeping that crazy husband entertained until her child is safe... I see no such sacrifice going on in the trans community... don't take the the wrong way...all trans have had a ruff go of it... they have ignorant parents for one... or uneducated to what our history really is...so all their little lives TS children are told they are wrong... try not to act this way... I guess what I'm trying to say is... if our parents had known... who it have made a difference... I believe it would have... I believe we would have a healthy different sect of people called "two spirited"... ... if you are trans... or not... I implore you to read what is written in almost every culture on earth about my tribe... "Two Spirited" men and women were your helpers... we served your spirit and helped you learn more about each other... we are not men or women... we are a tribe that has some understanding of both... it's why we as trans always say... I'm a woman tramped in this body... lol... no you are a man or a woman who has insight become human kind in spiritual matters...
no you are a man or a woman who has insight beyond normal human kind in spiritual matters...
amen sister!!!lol!
and nowwwwwww for my next trick... lol... sorry... this soap box was just here so I was fine until I stepped up on it...lol...lol...lol... have a great night... kiss the babies and love on that man of yours... oh that's right we are supposed to be angry and cross... lol... what if we weren't supposed to be angry at all... we gifted men so drunk in the spirit that we dreamed we were women in mens bodies... or women who wanted equality so much that we dreamed we inhabited men...lol...
When I started questioning my gender and considering transitiiong, I had a male to female transsexual tell me "You will never be a man. You will be only be the best impression of a man." I'm female to male. I feel like that is definitely applicable to your father's situation...just switch the genders. :)
whybrew... so very applicable to all two spirited behavior... they are gifts... we have both...gays have both in that there are alike in both... Lesbian has both in that they are both on the one side... bi is coming to have both but not in a controlled manner... trans or two spirits have both but had refine both behaviors and decided their uniqueness lay in that they were two living as one... I think what we are doing to oursleves is trying to fit into a mode that was never meant for us... so I am in agreement with you... if we enter into the binary system as one or the other...we do satisfy our longings... but I am still suspect that we lose our uniqueness... we are two living as one...
@Jeanine. I agree completely. I don't identify my gender as male or masculine. I identify as transgender. There's no other way to describe it. I've learned on my journey that I need to embrace my femininity and not suppress it. All of it is a part of who I am.
I agree to both Jeanine and whybrew! I can almost sympathize in a way that I didn't feel like a woman when I competed in the business industry. I had to look like a woman and act or work like a man. It was hard not being true to myself. I'm now working on my own time from home and a stay-at-home mom so I feel in sync with who I am as a woman. I know this is a strange example but similar in some ways. I think many professional women have to fit into a man's mold. I don't think there should be a mold or one or two choices but individual utilized for their strengths and live as who they are.
My dad, after transitioning lives mroe like gender neutral than he did as a man dressing as a woman.
whybrew- you are exactly right on embracing your femininity and not suppress it. I finally learned to do that when I had my first child- it took about 30+ years. Sad but true so glad you've found that for yourself. And it is a journey...
whybrew is right we are all both... so why are the doctors telling us we will only be happy if we are one... that's a very strange thing for me... because I've lived this way all of my life... not because I had to but because it's the way I am.... I didn't nor do I feel something is wrong with me... I feel it has helped me in that I know a lot or a little about both... I don't long to be a woman or long to be a man... I am...and whatever happens that day is what I do...or how I live that day... I do however sometimes wished I was all woman or all man... but then I think... what is that statement... and I have to look and see that it is a statement from the binary system... what man wouldn't want to know more about the inner working of a woman... or what woman wouldn't want to understand more about her man... I really don't see it as a bad thing... just a different thing...
Jeanine that's what I have thought. My dad says it confuses him to go back and forth. Were I have a hard time is the clothing, hormones, and changing the voice. It makes much more sense as you say, "I am". Why is it necessary to change all the externals? Be who you are, relate how you do and if someone can't relate, move on. At least they know you for who you are. Or is that to simplistic?
pringles, you are right... but in his/her defense... there are other issues going on... some of it is rebellion from and over zealous father or grandfather... some of it can be OCD, some of it can be depression... we are trans but not all of us have studied our history..."google 'Two spirited" people for him... unfortunately for us... the medical community has bought into surgery... I am so sorry you are having to face this... but help him/her if you can... he/she has lost her way... and because she/he has repressed this desire for so long... it has turned on her/him... we have have to face this part... the difference with me is I have had a wonderful support group and have had the time to wait and study... it is very confusing... and because he can't just change , he is looking at the externals to help him...."Why is it necessary to change all the externals? Be who you are, relate how you do and if someone can't relate, move on. At least they know you for who you are"... is the million dollar question.. we all are so displeased with our body imagine that it is difficult to think normally like you do... we are not binary and we so much long for that... I stopped longing to be like you and others long ago... it's just not in my jeans...lol... no pun intended... also.. there are some homo erotic feelings going on with most of us and we were and are so graphed into our relationship with God, that it is difficult to think we could be attracted to our own sex... so we must be the opposite sex... now that is to simplistic also...
This is fascinating, enjoyed the back story too. I am a trans and a parent. I am intersexed, I dont want to be either, just myself somewhere in the middle. It is very hard, I have not transitioned and I live as a man, to my daughter and my work colleagues because I fear their reactions. I am very close to my daughter.
I make an attractive man, I also made a very attractive woman and I feel comfortable and good as a woman. I feel I have to live as a man though. Its pretty horrible for me. I think about it everyday of my life and always have. It is my daughter that I worry about she is 10. Should I tell her and if so how? What is your advice. This is lifelong for me, it a part of me. I am concerned and want to do the right thing for my daughter. I am struggling, society is so gender specific. Please suggest a way forward.
Hi Drew... a way... not the way but a way... is to find a gender neutral, job.. I am in entertainment and have been for all my life and it has helped... a lot... forest rangers, tour guides, computer programmers... there are many... many others.... I do understand how it has been on going... and I know it is painful... you must talk with Celeste on this site... she has a different take than the rest... so talk with her when you can... your child is the most important...
Drew... I didn't tell you the easiest thing and that is to find a friendly therapist to recommend you to a good endocrinologist... he will will start you on a low dose of estrogen and an anti-androgen... in just a few weeks you will feel so much better you want believe it... do that as soon as you can and then you will have time to think... also, do your face before you try to transition... it takes a moment but is worth it...and google.. "two spirited" people... it's our history really... so it will help...the hrt is great, clearing the face is a new place for you to be... and the history will show how we have been treated like kings and queens all over the world for all of our years here on earth...except the last few hundred years... most trans only know their history sense the 1920's... harry Benjamin... before the medical community started to help us, we were advisers to kings and leaders of the world... since the medical community has been helping... we are the pride of the Jerry Springer Show... read it... there is a history with our kind...prayer helps...
Thanks, for your comments Jeanine, I am grateful for your time, I will look that up now. Thanks so much, I am used to humiliation and abuse and all the wrong type of attention, not much used to understanding. I will send you a private message. I am really quite shy.
you are welcome... we all need understanding and there is an on going conversation within these hubs of Izettl s so I think there is a trilogy that she has written... this one and My Father the transsexual... and misunderstanding gender and an extra hub called OCD and transexuality... she is a very good writer to me and has an opinion about almost everything... I love that... a very good look at what woman will grow to be very soon in America... it's why I think so many of us, who know both sides are transitioning... we see what is coming in the age ahead for women and would rather be in the group that will end up on top...lol so to speak... funny but it's real for us... the pyschosis is so paramount that we have all been convinced by a meddling medical community that we are women or are men... we are not... I believe we are two and we are supposed to stay as two living as one... to help men and women usher in the new reality....try not to be shy... Celeste has some real input here so touch with her... she is a very beautiful human being but gave up her family and said it was the most hurt she has ever felt in her life... so she knows... I stayed with my family because "Two spirits" never leave their families nor the families never leave them... it's a belief not a law or anything... it's why we stay as two... we are both... living as one... there is another choice is all I'm saying... your child is a gift from God... so they are to be treated as such... let he who has ears to hear let him hear...
Unfortunately God who created you is against emasculation.Those who do idolatry,sexual immorality,effeminate(homos),LGBT,liars,murderers,cowards will be thrown to eternal hell fire.So your thinking that effeminate charachters are okay for a man,or that masculine characters are okay for women is wrong.The present dilemma of your father is miserable,but Good News is even he can have eternal life if he repent of his sexual immorality and accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour.The same is the case for you and all who are decieved by the gender bending feminist lie.Repent come back to Jesus who created you and stop sinning.God bless you.
Jason... the only time in the written history that Jesus got mad was when the leaders in the church judged everyone... he never turned over any tables or cried you have made my Fathers house a den of robbers and thieves... when He was in the street with us sinners... He only did that once... and that was with you guys... who are always judging... and I know that's your own cross to bear, so I will pray for you as you pray for us... our psychosis is body dysmorphia (we can't seem to be comfortable in this body)... yours is spiritual( you can't be comfortable with your spirit, so you feel you must justify your beliefs by helping me to see it your way)... but they are both psychosis... are you aware that most of the words you speak are .. John Tyndales words not the original words that are written... when he did the interpt for the King James version... he wrote what the people could understand... I don't expect you to see it my way... but I did fall in love with the Christians God and He is everything you profess Him to be... except this one thing that you seem to want to hold up and say... I have found no judgemental attitude in Him... only in some of His followers like yourself... please pray for us and put on your best face of Christ if you can... read our history... before the Christians came to save us... we were the keepers of the secrets of God... did you know that before the Christians came... in most tribes there was no word for divorce... so please.. I do appreciate you trying to save us, but read your own history, it's so full of violence that it is difficult for the rest of us to actually believe you are trying to save us... it feels more like you are trying to make us believe what you believe... and that's ok... it's just not very mature... what was it Jesus called it... caught up in the law , I think...like not eating grain on the Sabbath... or the ox in the ditch... try to see with His eyes instead of your own... we were fine for thousands of years... until the Christians came and demanded that we join the binary system... because you only believe in God man man and God made woman... pray for us as we pray for you... we are men and women, who have an understanding of both... you seem to be a man who has no understanding of either... read dear... in the beginning was the word... means in the beginning Christ was there and He was called the word... it also means in the beginning... God gave us the word to communicate and be intelligent... the written word... and the Christ... or the way you say it... Christ and then the written word... as "two spirits" we believe the body is holy also and should be respected... again if you look at what happened to my tribe... it was the Christians that said I had to be either a man or a woman... sad really... there is no such thing as gender bending... that's some pop culture phrase that you grew up with... try and love me, like Christ would... it will give you much more peace and I will try and listen if I see Christ in you... that the key dear... you must put yourself a side and see me as He would... not as you would... I'm sure you are a wonderful person... and I'm sure you are trying to help me... I go to your Churches because you are always talking about Him... I read this Bible because it's about Him... but neither of those interest me in the least when He is near... I just want to be with Him... My love and yours... I hear you saying I may be evil if I don't see it your way... But I hear Him whispering in my ear, that I am His and He is mine and He loves me... and that is so much more powerful inside of me... even now, He prompt me to tell you I love you... speak to each other in love... and we will feel His presence... I hope you understand... and I hope you will stay and comment... we need to talk amongst ourselves... He loves each of us the same... He said so... Romans 8: 38... nothing can keep us away from the love of God... that would be nothing dear... nothing would include gender dysphoria... and also would mean even you ... can't keep me away from His love... hope you have a good day... love is the answer... He said that to... love me... can you... for if you can not love... How can Christ love you...think... I just told you... even I can't keep you away from His love...
Unfortunately Jesus said "i have not come to make peace,but war".Brother against brother,family against family,nation against nation.The path to eternal life is not easy and wide but hard and narrow,and few pass through it.But with anointing of Holy Spirit ,God helps us to traverse this difficult path.I too am a sinner like you,perhaps more sinfull than you.I have no merit in myself to condemn/judge anyone.Jesus said to the prostitute woman whom he saved from stoning by the crowd -TO SIN NO MORE.THAT IS HIS CRY TO EVERYONE OF US.HE LOVES US SO MUCH,AND WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED.THAT IS WHY HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND.
Forgive me if i have offended you.I only meant to expose the reality to you.I will pray for you,so that God may lead you to eternal life.God bless you.
I have eternal life because of your savior and mine... I still live in the body He gave me and you did not offend me... I love Christians... I just don't love the dogma... because I choose to lie in this body does not mean this is not a real thing for my tribe... and that's what these hubs are about...a discussion of your ideas and all of our ideas... I believe we have been sold a bill of goods by the medical community... again... if you read history... "Two spirited" people have been here since Adam and Eve... we were advisers to Kings and queens all over the world... all I'm saying is... the first people who got the message from God abused it and took the laws of Moses which are Holy and the word of God and changed them so much, that Christ had to come and set it straight... I'm saying be kind and realize that Christians may be doing it again... when Christ came... who knew more about religion than anyone on earth... the guys working in the temple... where He went off and said... "My Fathers house is a house of prayer... you have made it a den of thieves"...thieves in this case is not just those who are stealing moneies... but those who would steal the truth from people like us... that because you believe there is no way for God to love us.... because we are so different than you there is no way He could love us... your own bible refutes that... think about it... in your church , more than likely your pastor preaches that Paul won the argument when he comes down from antioch and tells peter that Christ meant for us to go out in all the world... well that's how we believe now... but Peter won that argument and most of the disciples stayed in Jerusalem until the Romans began to martre them.... I believe we as Christians are doing similiar things to the words of God today... I know you meant well... but the very fact that you would judge before knowing us is troubling... and I know as a Christian you can understand what I am saying...what if you are a student of those who came before you and not truly the word... and I'm not saying you are wrong... just saying look at it a moment... if I were satan and were going to try to destroy this thing that God has given so freely to everyone on earth... how would I do it... I would tell them that there are certain people and certain ways that Christ will not accept and forgive... or that unless I could act a certain way or act like your rules... I wasn't really forgiven... understand...
God lookes deep inside your heart.He. knows the deep secrets of your heart.He knows how wicked human heart can be.
Jesus lashed at pharisees who led people to hell fire by twisting scriptures.Jesus coming was long prophecied by more than 430 messianic prophecies,a few which is yet to be fulfilled in the 2nd coming of Jesus.This is the only thing i want to show you -A great time judgment/wrath is coming,before which all true belivers will be taken out of earth by rapture.So if you are a true believer you will repent about your sins,rather than saying you are holy,just etc.Bible says all mankind is sinfull by the sin of Adam.Further after repenting you should not sin anymore.In case you sin again and again because of your weak "flesh",repent again until you get the anointing of holyspirit to overcome the sin.This is what it means to walk in the narrow and hard path that lead to eternal life.
So my dear friend,what is the sin in the case of being effeminate/transgendered/homosexual etc?.Jesus clearly says in 1Corinthians6:9 and other scriptures that those who practice homosexuality,delibrate emasculation for selfish pleasure etc which characterizes the word "effeminate" are sinning and doomed for eternal hell fire along with idolaters,adulterers,liars,cowards,murderers etc.You seem to justify your effeminate selfish sins in your posts.Think about it and pray to Jesus to lead you to truth.If you have already become a woman by sex change operation,then pray to Lord Jesus to lead you to eternal life.Remember God created humans as male and female.Diseases,infirmities transgendered babies are the work satan and his fallen angels.In the rare case of being born as a transgendered baby,they are justified to choose what sex they want to be.So if you were created by God as a male and you sinned against God by becoming a female,then repent and continue to live as a female or revert back to male by sex change operation rather than living as both male and female and sinning against Jesus Christ.
So God bless you to see the reality and have eternal life.
Ok... I want to be saved... tell me how... you can't... because of your own selfish need to be holy... I am not holy and I know it... nor have I transitioned into another body.. did you read anything I wrote... I am the chief sinner amongst all of you... well like Paul when he was Saul... I do so hope you learne to have a real relationship with Christ... what is bothering you is that He would speak to someone like me... you must face this in your life... because I do have a real relationship with Him and we speak every day before my day begins and as long as He wants me to listen... please lay yourself aside for just one moment... or you will be as surprised as anyone when heaven is full of sinners like me... I know someone told you you had to tell me the good news... but what they forgot to tell you is you need to show me the Christ in you... not tell me... I can read... I know I am a sinner... and if you believe that you can live a day without sin, then knock yourself out... you can almost do it... but then you say... I did it... and that would be the sin of pride...lol...lol... if you did live a day without sinning against God... you would have to not notice... more like Mother teresa... or Billy Graham... I enjoyed the conversation though... and I'm very aware of your bible because it's mine also... as you grow... I'll leave you with this question... if your walk is personal and daily why do you only tell the miracles that God did 2000 years ago... my tribe had and has a relationship with what you call your God... but to us it looks like you based it on our relationship with Him... not yours... if you were going to steal the Glory from a people how would you do it... you would tell everyone that we were evil...and kick us out of the church... and if you knew not how to access the God you speak of... you would only tell stories of what happened...and not what is happening... can you heal the man with the withered hand... or do you believe that was for another time...lol... oh my.... think dear... He is the God of all of creation... my sin is no worse than yours... stop spewing hate... I don't hate you... nor what you do... except I really hate that judgment thing you seem to be carrying... I told a hater once trying to preach the Gospel through hate... be careful, this God with show up and visit you and deal with you the way you are dealing with others... now... do you want to start over and treat me like I am His most precious, which is what I hear from Him every time I hear from Him...which I'm lucky or blessed... or lucky to be this blessed or blessed to be this lucky... so that would be everyone of your days...not 2000 years ago but today, now this morning... I am a lot like Peter... and I would cut your ear off... except that's not what He tells me to do... even with those like yourself who hate those of us who don't fit, who are outcast, those that the world and all of those who say they represent Him... dislike... you are not my judge... nor do I see my lover Jesus Christ in you or your words... so as you warn me... be very careful to listen to your own words... are they for me... or for you... I believe they are for both of us... you have no right to say I do not have eternal life... nor do I have the right to say you do not... the last time you saw me... I was the one hanging to His right... I did nothing good, nothing Holy, yet the King of all Glory invited me to His Home in Paradise... trim your lamps.. and be concerned with you... the Bridegroom cometh for those who wait and are ready...
I said "if" you have transformed to woman by sex change operation,then live as a woman and give thanks to the Lord Jesus.But if your consciense hurts that you have sinned by changing your sex then pray to Jesus to show you the way and if he opens a way to another sex change operation to revert back to being a man then do it,live the rest of your life as a man and give thanks to Lord Jesus for saving you.I didn't judge you,i showed you the way to eternal life as the Holy Spirit showed me.When you live claiming you are transgendered with a male/female body then you sin against Jesus.If you have male body you should live as a male and if you have a female body you should live as a female,otherwise you are sinning against Lord Jesus.True hermaphrodite where external genitalia is underdeveloped is a rare case,and let them live as God leads them.
I remember my girl friend once asking me if she loked pretty in pants,i replied skirts suit her better.Most people have cross-dressed and have sinned just like idolatry.I have also cross-dressed.But Lord Jesus gave me power to overcome that sin.People trapped in the so called "modern" feminist lie think it's okay to crossdress.That is now a usual practice among westerners.Women wear pants act tomboyish and this sin is encouraged like idolatry.Men indoctrinated with these feminist lies like yourself think it's okay to cross dress ignoring the clear warnings of OT &NT scriptures.May God have mercy on these people ,for they donot know what they do.
Try and understand that you are clueless when it comes to what we are talking about...you just said... well if you are intersexed... is the word... not Hermaphrodite... you just said let them live the way they choose... good grief man That means you see degrees of this disorder... oh I must be a sinner because I am hermaphrodite light... lol... hey thanks for your opinion ... and I will try and be more like you and tell God... that I need to do what you say and feel less of a person than to listen to His words that say I am his love and He is mine forever... yeah like that's not going to happen... hey tell me... who did you come to this site... are you dealing with gender issues or have you in the past.... "google "two spirited" people and see, we do not change bodies nor leave our families , nor do they leave us... we were until your kind came to america, the spiritual leaders of all the tribes... the keepers of the secrets of God... so here we go... what fruit are you showing... we show that we led nations in peace... Christians have led in war... read it... it's not my opinion... doesn't the bible say you will know them by their fruit...wake up... praise is talking... prayer is listening... Christ never judged anyone but the leaders of the church, He let each one either follow Him or walk away like the rich young ruler... if you go out tomorrow and sell all that you have and give it to the poor... then I might listen to your judgmental dogma... but you are not going to do that... nor are you going to touch us and heal us... you have had the chance to touch me right here and you still can only go to the well rehearsed judgement that you have practiced... never realizing you could be talking to Christ Himself... and no I am not Him... but he said , what ever you have done to the least of these you have done unto me... have a nice day... and no I am praying for you as you pray for me... it's for sure we will find out in the end... here's my last question... if I'm so confused and this disorder does cause confusion... because we want to be so much like you... yeah...lol... sorry.... why am I telling you that love is the way and you are telling me unless I turn and don't do that...I will die for sure... as far as I can tell ... Christ never said anything negative to anyone, except those who claimed to know God's will... I know that hurt but as much as I need to hear what you are saying... and you believe I do right... you must realize that you could be that person... I can hear you now saying well... I could never be like the Pharisees... look at that for a moment... no one knew more about God, no one knew more of the law, no one tried harder than the Pharisees to be Holy... and no one cared more for the people supposedly than them... help me believe you are not those guys... I am willing to be saved... if you can love me... Christ did not say come to me when you are sinless... He calls all as we are... now if I can no longer sin and be the woman I am inside... you can surely try and not be my judge... correct...
Great hub glad I took the time to search for something to read. I love the fact that we are allowed to air our feelings, opinions, observations on such a forum. I too write like you in that I don't write for anyone but myself and if someone learns something from it then all the better. It may be very personal but it's my truth which is never something I'm ashamed of. It makes us more human. Thanks for the hub. I will return.
Wow this is a very interesting hub. This is the first time I've read of a 50+ man deciding to undergo sex change surgery. I've seen plenty of transvestites but they are way way younger. Thanks for sharing, izettl.
Jason~ you may have this confused for a religious article/hub. I have plenty of those and you should visit them. It sounds as if you are taking God's job away as judge.
Drew~ the best thing I can suggest IS talking to your child in an age appropriate way with age appropriate info. I understood a lot when I was 10- in fact that's when I realized thorugh my mom's conversations with her friends that my dad cross-dressed. I never knew the desire to BE a woman until my dad transitioned. I've always maintained that the thing that hurt was him not talking to me or halping me transition with him- having time to get used to the idea and communication throughout the process. I was blind-sided.
I remember many times as a child when I screwed up or did something wrong and it was so hard to admit or tell my parents, but I did. I always relenquished my pride and I told them- just wish my dad had reciprocate that same effort to tell me even though it would be difficult. Talking to your child will be hard now, but harder later.
Also I remember certain things hat signified me becoming a woman and I tried to pretend to be the little girl my dad remebered me (and preferred) me to be. I led a double life just as you are talking about- being one person to others and another person to my dad. I still don't believe my dad has accepted me as a woman and perhaps that's influenced the way I accept him as a woman.
karmicfilly~ what a great way to describe our writing! Writing has always helped me to figure things out and it's great to get the comments and feedback too. Thank you for stopping by.
angied83~ thank you for taking the time to read.
You show your ignorance more than your insight here.
55 years trying to be as normal as possible. Of course there are coping strategies, defence mechanisms and learnt behaviours that would take another 55 years to unlearn. There's little gender conflict in someone who has been doing this as long as she has, just a lot of shame and pain and so much time to be made up for.
I think you're selfish to show such distain after she stuck with you for so long. You look down your nose at her with your perfect cis binary 20/20 vision. It takes a stronger person than you clearly are to have done what she did at 55.
The SRS, BA, FFS and/or voice training hasn't so much to do with "instantly becoming a woman" so much as it has to do with reflecting on the outside how you feel on the inside. Far more important though is how you're treated day to day. You look like a guy you're expected to look and act a certain way and so you do for as long as you can manage it.
Your second mum has no chance of passing, she gave that dream up by waiting this long, for whatever reason (you guys probably) - but at least if she shows cleavage and attempts a voice people might take her for more than a 2 penny fetishistic cross dresser high on autogynephilia.
You miss the vital point that she always was a woman on the inside and she's so very desperate to be recognised as such.
It's a cruel world made crueler by people such as you.
Anna~ did I forget to mention when my dad laughed at me every time I cried or showed emotion (that doesn't make for a good woman). Like I state in my just because she has boobs doesn't make her a woman. You are right in saying it's on the inside but many transsexuals would never pass for a woman even if we were only to judge them on their inside. Many still act like men...like my dad..very insensitive.Perhaps my so-called cruelty came from him- I was after all raised by him.
Because of my dad I didn't want to grow up and be a woman- my dad looked down upon my mom and picked at her for so many years. He cheated on her with another woman- yeah that's a good woman on the inside (sarcasm).
Problem is you didn't know the back story of my dad's personality. You just say to yourself ' poor transsexual', but did not konw my dad was mostly the predator in my family...very sharp-toungued and looked down upon women. Made fun of me when I was growing up. But you're right...poor him/her. He was not always and still isn't a woman on the inside. That's why I think some trans are playing nothing more than a charade and should recognize what truly makes a woman and perhaps even accept that they are both male-like and female-like but not one or the other. Which is fine too.
This selfish and cruel person wishes you a happy day.
Your second mum acted how she did for reasons I'll never know and such reasons are clearly beyond the scope of this thread.
That doesn't alter the fact that your sense of gender is warped and you apply the distain you feel for your second mum to other trans women and I wonder just how many other trans women you do really know.
Furthermore you bind kindess to women and cruelty to men - laughable. Try stating "makes a good person" and not "makes a good woman".
The topic of this thread should be "just because you have boobs doesn't make you a nicer person".
Gender has nothing to do with who the person is. Fat/thin short/tall happy/sad gynephilic/androphilic nice/nasty caring/selfish.
I'm not too arrogant to admit when I'm wrong but you are cruel and selfish; but then we're all products of our surroundings aren't we?
Anna Please, you know better than to act like this...she had to live through this so her other mom as you call her dad is not alone here... I am trans and she knows me... I'm two spirited and here's my question and I know you'll calm down here in a moment and try and answer it... " if I am a woman inside like you and all five of my therapist and a few others have said I am, I do feel like you and wished everyday I had transitioned, here's my question, "what GG, woman or mother do you know, who would intentionally hurt their children, actually I don't know one who would, in fact I would kill any man who tried to hurt my children, including the one I live within... read your history, we were great as a tribe, living as two for thousands of years, we were advisers to Kings and leader all over the world... since the medical community has been helping us these last 100 years, we are the pride of the jerry Springer show... think about it, have you ever heard another option except SRS.... I stumbled upon "two spirited" people looking for some answers and I can already hear you saying, that's just an American Indian term, and you would be right, except we were called many different things in different tribes... we were the keepers of the secrets of God... and before the Christians came, the spiritual leaders of the entire world... look it up, read your own history, I love and respect you because of who you are not what the medical community has decided what we need to be... we are not binary, so why are we trying to be... I know you have been hurt, but understand I do understand... our parents were ignorant and didn't know, we must educate and you must see that this is a child of abuse reaching out to tell her story... stop the hating and spewing hate... we are not of this tribe that you want to join or that someone has told you should be... we are two spirits here to help them know one another not hurt them... think about it... was it your dad, your grandfather, that made you act like a man, think about it from their perspective... if little Johnnie says I'm a girl ... I'm a girl, what do they do, they run to the doctor and if he has not been educated to who we are, he says, well if you are not a boy, you must be a girl.... tell me human beings are smarter than this... because I have found they are not...I am so sorry but you must grow up and see who you are... you are great, so do not hurt them, they mean you no harm... you can not unload your hurt here... I am two living as one as we have for thousands of years... Two spirits do not leave their families nor do our families leave us... try to be civil... there is understanding and acceptance here, so let me hear the real you, yes the one I know, the one before the hurt...
First I'm not sure why you're bringing this around to me and who I am - other than the fact that like everyone else I bring my own experiences and prejudices to the debate but that's kind of a given in any debate and what makes it so interesting.
There's no anger here though, I'm just stating my opinion. If I'm too strident perhaps you're too weak a person to deal with my tone and thus must define it as anger. The author of this thread was pretty spirited, in initial post and subsequent replies and yet you suggest I calm down?
Honestly what you've written just comes over as sanctimonious babble Jeanine. I'm well aware of the American Indians and some African tribes having places in their culture, mythology and societies for trans people. If you identify as somewhere in the middle fine but don't try and apply that to how I feel. I subscribe myself loosely to the binary tree but more specifically as female. The majority of my stereotypically male traits are as I am finding out more and more, by and large; defence mechanisms. Amazingly I'm perhaps more stereotypically feminine in many ways than my female siblings and even my mother, that's not put on to over compensate that's just a fact it'd seem now I'm allowing myself to be me but that doesn't mean I dress overtly feminine or act overtly feminine because I don't need or want to. If you do not subscribe to the binary tree then fine - third sexed, two spirited, whatever takes your fancy it's fine by me. Funny though you've rejected other peoples labels but are happy to apply your own, but you've just tried to convince me that's how I should feel and identify but I do not sorry.
SRS is not the be all and end all anymore than breasts are or wide hips. Why do you think it's so hard to obtain SRS? How many countless hours of therapy, RLE and psychiatrists letters does one need? I'd suggest you do some research because there are many trans women who have no problem with their boy bits and never seek SRS at all.
My problem with Izettl's posts are that she binds her second mothers personality traits to all trans women. That's tantamount to calling all black people gangsters, all Jews tight with their money and all Americans fat and stupid - some are and some are not just as some are and some are not in all walks of life and social groups.
There are many bad mothers and this point I simply won't argue on because you're just wrong my friend and it is obviously pointless to discuss it further. Additionally her genetic mother is as much to blame for facilitating what happened as her second mother is for behaving in that way. Abusers by and large require facilitators, that's not giving her second mother a pass for actions done; that's simple fact as I see it.
You've proven my point Jeanine, her mother did let it happen so by your own reasoning- bad mother.
Frankly, I didn't really want to put this transparency out there but I will.
From my personal experience of adult children with unhappy childhoods based in this dynamic (transsexuality aside for a moment) :
-: Daughters blame their mother role for not protecting them and letting these things continue.
-: Sons blame their father role for acting that way in the first place and putting them all through it.
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People bind their own perspectives to the situations of course but this as far as I can tell seems to be the typical product.
It's very interesting then that the female poster applies zero or very little blame to the genetic mother. It's also interesting that as a by product of that she renounces any true transsexualism in the genetic father (presumably lest he have anything in common what-so-ever to the saintly mother). Furthermore she claims to have renounced femininity and womanhood in her youth, but surely the saintly mother would have been her strongest female role model in the family? Since the genetic father was far from full time and the poster obviously now rejects any real femininity in the genetic father.
God... I wished you could read you like we are reading you... you are all male in attitude and that's proving my point... we are both... male as warriors and female in compassion... and that's all I'm asking of you... be compassionate... let me see your girl side... I like you don't give damn what you are or how you live... I know most every Trans has treated her exactly like you are treating her and I know you are not this harsh with your own children even if you find them to be wrong... so that's all I'm saying... we have lived with our cross and she decided to write about hers... now... unless you transitioned very early... I know and you know as well that some of your matter of fact as you call it... opinion is from the hurt you had to live through as a male... try and put yourself in her position...I don't think it was his transition... I think it's that, she didn't go through the hours that you and I have had to go through... I have read here somewhere that her dad just went to Thailand and when she came back she was a woman in body... I think that's the anger in her... so please I'm actually trying to show her we are not all ass holes... and it's for sure men do have that title more than women... so just be the bitch and she can take it...lol... sorry I couldn't resist... and yes you are right I know plenty of girls that still have their old plumbing...
Anna I do see that about her and that is unique... but you just said all of us are somewhere on this spectrum and we must educate the entire binary crowd if we ever really expect their respect... don't leave... I need someone else that can at least give a real opinion... I'm just trying to see both... which was our speciality.... remember...lol hope you have a good day... and thx so much for trying to help... there are a lot of us who are searching... we need to help one another ...
Jeanine I can't talk to someone who tells me "I must" this and "I must that" and spouts clichés of masculinity and femininity at me all the time. You're as bad as the religious crowd citing the bible/whatever as evidence for their belief's.
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izettl: You're clearly trans phobic in my opinion, if I were your second mum I'd have done it without consulting you and I'd have cut you out of my life altogether.
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I'm done here, there's nothing for anyone to gain.
Anna~ first of all I speak of my personal experience on this hub and I don't mind if you don't agree...some will some will not.
You are as general about minority groups as I supposedly am about male-female roles. Just because trans are a minority group doesn't mean they should automatically garner acceptance and use excuses to do whatever they want because of their inner pain and what they deal with. They inflict pain as well as I am not the only child of a trans to feel this way...funny, but there are many so that must tell you something. There are many non-minority groups that don't fit in in some way too.
What I don't understand is what makes a trans "feel" like a woman on the inside if I am doing too much labeling as far as nice person and not nice person. Please tell me what it "feels" like to be a woman. Did u go through transitions and milestones throughout your life that a typical girl to woman does? No, doubt it. Many trans pick ou their bra's much later in life while I had to pick one out at 13 and grow up from girl to woman.
No woman would intentionally harm their children unless they have a mental illness or are a bitch.
Also I did not have an unhappy childhood, it has made me the person I am today and learn what I'd like to teach my children and what I'd not like to teach them.
Let me ask you then...what makes you female...if it's not genitalia and you state you feel more like or identifu more as a woman...why? Please educate me? DO you like women's clothes better? Does that make you a woman? Do you like the way a woman looks? Does that make you a woman? To be treated as a woman and go through what a woman goes through from birth...certainly makes me a woman. And that is my point. You say I can't assign characteristics and personality traits that make someone more like a woman or more like a man...so what is it that you identify to as a woman...what makes you feel like a woman? I'm interested in your definition.
I've lived as a woman all my life and I can tell you that my experiences as one and society treating me as one (both good and bad things apply) make me a woman. Men tend to not get women's emotions and thus I believe why you don't get my "spirited" personal account of my experiences written on this hub.
I take a person for a person and the irony of the title on this hub is also for women who act like bitches- it is a title for male and female. Literally my dad's personality changed overnight (from my end and what I saw) right after my dad got his change. It was a transition for him but not for me- I had not time to "transition" while my dad had years to think this over and act upon it slowly in ways enough to hide from me.
Some things make you say damn... lol... Anna, how is your judging both of us any different than us judging you... are you super woman...lol... Mary wants to be a super woman... and try to boss the bull around... lol... hey lighter up...I swear if I met you I would run the other way... and I like most trans... maybe you are God... clue me in if you are... and I can say you must do this are that all I want... this is America... and I have the right to treat you as you act... if you act like a nice person... then I'll treat you nicely... is that a word...lol but if you are an ass... and you are definitely more male than female... in your words... you frustration is so masculine that I have to laugh... you could be the most beautiful trans in the world and if you had that attitude, all of us would be suspect... ease Jack... if you really are a Jill... she don't act like you... or are you that one all glorious trans that we all should meet... give me break... we all live here on earth and it's as much mine as it is yours... so... may you always get it the way you give it to others... hard and cold... no love, and no lube... you deserve what you get... so good luck with that feminine charm you have been sharing so freely here with us today...
Anna~ I know a few trans...and I wonder how many children of trans you know. if I am so cruel and most of the many children of trans I've chatted with feel the same as I do, then you are grouping us all into one selfish and cruel category. I didn't ask my dad to stay around or even marry my mom and help "make" me so why am I being selfish for wanting him to take care of me as a child and nurture my feminine side instead of make me feel bad about it.Why do I owe him anything? As a aprent I put my children here on earth and I owe it to them to give them what I've got... in terms of love and lessons and building them up- they don't owe me.
Most trans I have heard say they feel like they were born in the wrong body and my point with this hub is that the body is not what makes a woman, a woman- it is not the boobs. It is deeper than that and it seems to me you don't want to get too deep about this. You see. women try to hash it out until we understand each other whereas men are right-fighters, always wanting to be right and if they can't they go in for the kill and if they can't win they don't want to play... as you've demonstrated here.
Just Ask Susan Level 8 Commenter 9 months ago
That was sure interesting and now I will go and read The Back Story about your father being a transsexual. I cannot imagine how this made you feel as a child. I suppose we all have things we just deal with and this is one of yours.